My only issue with this is that I strongly suspect MX wouldn’t have proposed this in a more affluent neighborhood.
Anyways I know I wouldn’t want this MSF in my neighborhood, so I’m not going to say it should be located in their neighborhood either. Decking over this MSF to build a park or other facilities would be a way to make this a net win for the community.
 
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nfitz said:
I doubt it's a done deal, with the provincial election coming. Isn't the contract for the yard coming after the election?

I doubt Ontario line will be cancelled, but they could well tinker with the details - especially in the north.
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Yes you are correct the contract of the yard will be issued Fall 2022 (September 21, 2022-December 21, 2022) according to the latest IO P3 Market Update. However the expropriation for the MSF area has already commenced and demolition work will be done well before the June 2022 election. With that being said if they were to alter/cancel the MSF site it would be too late as the structures currently on it will already be demolished.

Ford is ahead in all the polling and will likely be re-elected however, Hypothetically, if Ford were to lose the election both the NDPs and Liberals have committed not to cancel any shovel ready projects including the Ontario Line if there were to be elected. It would be political suicide for them to cancel the Ontario Line and not have any replacement that doesn't reach Eglinton by 2029 at which time EGLRT will be well into operation and EGWLRT (tunnel creation has already started) will be finished or close to finishing. The above grade portion of the EGLRT is being heavily densified as you have seen through the many proposals and by the early 2030s it will be totally unrecognizable with dozens of new high tower condos and mixed used developmental projects.

Thus, this is a moot point and a waste of resources for the Thorncliffe Park residents. They should instead focus their time and energy in negotiating with the Province and Metrolinx to provide compensation and community projects for their loss. Malcom at the last town hall said he wants to hear from the residents what they want as in a community centre? Social Building Space? or what exactly they want. The Thorncliffe Park residents need to understand their argument is a moot point and that it is time to stop the aggressive stance and get to the negotiating table and solve this trough diplomacy exactly how the mosque has done, how iqbal foods has done and other affected msf owners have done.
 
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toronto647 said:
Yes you are correct the contract of the yard will be issued Fall 2022 (September 21, 2022-December 21, 2022) according to the latest IO P3 Market Update. However the expropriation for the MSF area has already commenced and demolition work will be done well before the June 2022 election. Hypothetically, if Ford were to lose the elections both the NDPs and Liberals have committed not to cancel any shovel ready projects including the Ontario Line if there were to be elected. It would be political suicide for them to cancel the Ontario Line and not have any replacement that doesn't reach Eglinton by 2029. With that being said if they were to alter/cancel the MSF site it would be too late as the structures currently on it will already be demolished.

Thus, this is a moot point and a waste of resources for the Thorncliffe Park residents. They should instead focus their time and energy in negotiating with the Province and Metrolinx to provide compensation and community projects for their loss. Malcom at the last town hall said he wants to hear from the residents what they want as in a community centre? Social Building Space? or what exactly they want. The Thorncliffe Park residents need to understand their argument is a moot point and that it is time to stop the aggressive stance and get to the negotiating table and solve this trough diplomacy exactly how the mosque has done, how iqbal foods has done and other affected msf owners have done.
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Those buildings to be replaced are single-story, cheaply built replaceable buildings... with parking lots. There's nothing remarkable about them. They can, and will be, replaced by bigger and better buildings near by.

They can start by building the replacements now.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Those buildings to be replaced are single-story, cheaply built replaceable buildings... with parking lots. There's nothing remarkable about them. They can, and will be, replaced by bigger and better buildings near by.

They can start by building the replacements now.
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Also Metrolinx will have the land rights to the MSF location and theres no way Ford or a new NDP/Liberal government will return the land to Thorncliffe Park residents or the old owners and then go somewhere else and expropriate such a large piece of land along a different portion of the Ontario Line and piss off people in another area. It is foolish and unpractical thinking that will happen and will also be politically suicide. Look how pissed the leslieville people are right now over such a minor thing in comparison to the MSF. Even though metrolinx has committed to lower noise/vibration and more park space than what there is today.

Any government has the mental capacity to understand this and will not move the MSF cause there really is not other logically location without creating more challenges / more disruptions and a delay in the project which all parties understand is a no-no.
 
toronto647 said:
Also Metrolinx will have the land rights to the MSF location and theres no way Ford or a new NDP/Liberal government will return the land to Thorncliffe Park residents or the old owners and then go somewhere else and expropriate such a large piece of land along a different portion of the Ontario Line and piss off people in another area.
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And yet that's exactly what the government did when, under community pressure, cancelled the Gardiner expressway segment from Leslie to Scarborough.

They don't need to expropriate other land. Then can simply make TTC move operations from Greenwood yard, to a bigger Obico yard, and use that instead - as originally planed for the TTC version of this line. And it would be a lot cheaper to do this now, with an at-grade link from the Ontario line near Pape to the yard - compared to the underground link that TTC was proposing.
 
nfitz said:
They don't need to expropriate other land. Then can simply make TTC move operations from Greenwood yard, to a bigger Obico yard, and use that instead - as originally planed for the TTC version of this line. And it would be a lot cheaper to do this now, with an at-grade link from the Ontario line near Pape to the yard - compared to the underground link that TTC was proposing.
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You're underestimating how complex and costly the work would be to convert Greenwood Yard in order to accommodate the Ontario Line fleet.
 
Amare said:
You're underestimating how complex and costly the work would be to convert Greenwood Yard in order to accommodate the Ontario Line fleet.
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I assume you'd just demo it and start again. Preferably in a way it could be covered with a development. Shouldn't be much different than starting from scratch.

Though that raises the option of putting the Thorncliffe deeper, with the opportunity of developing it. Perhaps also giving them a park. There's certainly other cities where the garages are underground or covered over!

toronto647 said:
Ford is ahead in all the polling and will likely be re-elected however, Hypothetically, if Ford were to lose the election both the NDPs and Liberals have committed not to cancel any shovel ready projects including the Ontario Line if there were to be elected.
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There's a difference between cancelling a project, and just tinkering with controversial pieces, like the yard location, and the above-ground segment through Riverdale.

Though Toronto-Danforth (Riverdale) is a safe NDP seat - so nothing to be gained there. But the yard is in Don Valley West, where the Conservatives lost in 2018 by only 181 votes - so if I were the Liberals, I would be making promises about moving that yard.

Ford is ahead in the polling, but they are significantly down from the last election in the recent (Leger) poll. The current Canada338 seat projection puts the PCs with only 53 seats, compared to 45 for the Liberals and 25 for the NDP - which I'd assume would lead ultimately lead to a Liberal premier - which is what happened in 1985 when the results were similar. I'm not sure why you think that Ford's re-election is likely, even if he is the best choice for transit expansion.
 
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nfitz said:
I assume you'd just demo it and start again. Preferably in a way it could be covered with a development. Shouldn't be much different than starting from scratch.

Though that raises the option of putting the Thorncliffe deeper, with the opportunity of developing it. Perhaps also giving them a park. There's certainly other cities where the garages are underground or covered over!
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Well you just answered the question of how complex it would be to use Greenwood with a new fleet. If you have to demolish and rebuild virtually the whole yard, how viable is it really? Basically you would be almost starting from scratch and then adding demolition costs on top on it. This is not a Toronto Rocket case of modifications, it's different technology.

Developing over any yard in Toronto is basically a non-starter. We rarely build over transit stations anymore compared to the 1970s-1980s; building over a yard would be a monumental feat for this city. And i'm not saying this because its impossible to do, but rather im saying it because it's Toronto's problematic bureaucracy that's the issue.
 
Amare said:
Well you just answered the question of how complex it would be to use Greenwood with a new fleet. If you have to demolish and rebuild virtually the whole yard, how viable is it really? Basically you would be almost starting from scratch and then adding demolition costs on top on it. This is not a Toronto Rocket case of modifications, it's different technology.

Developing over any yard in Toronto is basically a non-starter. We rarely build over transit stations anymore compared to the 1970s-1980s; building over a yard would be a monumental feat for this city. And i'm not saying this because its impossible to do, but rather im saying it because it's Toronto's problematic bureaucracy that's the issue.
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you say that, but then take a look at the recent TOD proposals, including east harbour.

wasnt there supposed to be like a huge underground train yard for younge north extension? before the new proposal?

not like its never been thought of before.
 
generalcanada said:
you say that, but then take a look at the recent TOD proposals, including east harbour.

wasnt there supposed to be like a huge underground train yard for younge north extension? before the new proposal?

not like its never been thought of before.
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I believe the yard proposed for the Yonge Extension was a simple set of 3 tail tracks for storage of 6 trains. I believe this is similar if not the same proposal made for the SSE north of Sheppard. The yards in this case are simple storage yards for overnight storage of trains and very basic maintenance (i.e. cleaning). Its the same function that Keele Yard on Line 2 serves. I don't believe there was ever a proposal for the yard to have an underground maintenance facility (ala Montreal) since Wilson Yard already serves that purpose.

The Ontario Line yard in this case isn't just for storage but is also for maintenance and thus will have a large maintenance facility which would be a little costly to put underground. On top of that the alignment of the OL through the area is elevated meaning the access ramps would have to be pretty steep in order to get the line from an elevated guideway to an underground tunnel. The gradient on those ramps would be pretty interesting to say the least.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
My only issue with this is that I strongly suspect MX wouldn’t have proposed this in a more affluent neighborhood.
Anyways I know I wouldn’t want this MSF in my neighborhood, so I’m not going to say it should be located in their neighborhood either. Decking over this MSF to build a park or other facilities would be a way to make this a net win for the community.
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Of course they wouldn't have. But again, an own goal. It is good for jobs though.
DirectionNorth said:
Hm, I remember discussion on a possible use of the CP corridor through there (can't remember the name of that yard). I think the issue here is that to avoid a church parking lot, they were going to demolish Muslim cultural centers. I've never understood (I care, but don't comprehend) this debate, so I've mostly stayed out - but if what nfitz said is true, then I prefer the old "solution."

We've gone over this before - I wish that we used TR rolling stock, but I'd rather get this done.
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Fair, but look at the bad press from this. It could have been avoided.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
My only issue with this is that I strongly suspect MX wouldn’t have proposed this in a more affluent neighborhood.
Anyways I know I wouldn’t want this MSF in my neighborhood, so I’m not going to say it should be located in their neighborhood either. Decking over this MSF to build a park or other facilities would be a way to make this a net win for the community.
Click to expand...
I would like to challenge every person saying this to please provide an alternative site in a more affluent neighbourhood for this facility that is just as feasible and economically effective, thanks.

Until then this argument can’t and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
 
Steve Munro has an update article regarding the downtown station consultations.

It discusses the peculiar layout of Queen Station (at Yonge) in some detail; and the absence of Osgoode Station from that presentation, among other things. Good read!

stevemunro.ca

Ontario Line Downtown Segment: Consultation Follow-Up

Updated October 14, 2021 at 12:50 am: Metrolinx’ responses to the absence of material on Osgoode Station, and of the suggestion of “ballot stuffing” have been added. After the rec…
stevemunro.ca stevemunro.ca
 
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