maestro said:
20+ floor area ratios are not crucial to Toronto's future growth. In fact, too much of these sort of densities in the wrong places could actually hinder growth. SE Corner is a fair bit smaller than the Aura site.
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As usual I agree with you on most points. I can think of many places within city boundaries that tall buildings aren't appropriate. The question, as always, is where are those places.

Also, it would be possible to say the SW corner site at Y&B, as constituted, is too small for a tall building. That's obviously not the point. I know it is a paradigm shift in thinking for many people but it is inconceivable that downtown Toronto could become too densely populated in the next 20 years. To truly compete with other global cities we need to at least double our downtown population as soon as possible to make it as interesting and vibrant as possible. That is a sine qua non for a city like TO to attract the world's top talent in the creative class. This is a matter of greater urgency than most people here seem to realize.
 
Uptowner said:
I know others feel that way too. I am just worried about placing constraints on the city's growth, especially downtown, because the planners think something will look neat. This could very easily limit potential growth and densities which I see as crucial to Toronto's success. Would it be so terrible if you had an Aura height building on south-east the corner of Church and Bloor, for example? I won't say there couldn't be other reasons not to have one that height there let's just not make sculpting the skyline one of them.

Or, stjames2queenwest, would you really oppose such a proposal for that reason alone? I'm not arguing just curious how deeply held your conviction is on this point.
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No I'd probably be thrilled, I'm ok with exceptions by all means, I just don't think it's that terrible to attempt planning. I definitely think that planning committees should aid growth and development not hinder it. I just think people get upset and point fingers unnecessarily sometimes.
 
Uptowner said:
As usual I agree with you on most points. I can think of many places within city boundaries that tall buildings aren't appropriate. The question, as always, is where are those places.

Also, it would be possible to say the SW corner site at Y&B, as constituted, is too small for a tall building. That's obviously not the point. I know it is a paradigm shift in thinking for many people but it is inconceivable that downtown Toronto could become too densely populated in the next 20 years. To truly compete with other global cities we need to at least double our downtown population as soon as possible to make it as interesting and vibrant as possible. That is a sine qua non for a city like TO to attract the world's top talent in the creative class. This is a matter of greater urgency than most people here seem to realize.
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I don't see a dire need to double or population in the downtown. We already have a large downtown population to our overall population for Canada/US. I'm for sure not a fan of current design trends in downtown intensification and I think the city will find to regret the result of the investor driven boom of today in the future.
 
maestro said:
I don't see a dire need to double or population in the downtown. We already have a large downtown population to our overall population for Canada/US. I'm for sure not a fan of current design trends in downtown intensification and I think the city will find to regret the result of the investor driven boom of today in the future.
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Sounds like many in this forum have been drinking the decade-old Kool-Aid over at Richard Florida's. What Toronto needs now is better DESIGN on all fronts, not just haphazard density.
 
maestro said:
I don't see a dire need to double or population in the downtown. We already have a large downtown population to our overall population for Canada/US. I'm for sure not a fan of current design trends in downtown intensification and I think the city will find to regret the result of the investor driven boom of today in the future.
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Agreed, but the size of these minuscule apartments is also an issue - and in addition, downtown intensification should include a downtown a relief line or transit improvements. Adding more and more people into an area with overcrowded transit is not a solution to traffic gridlock.

I had a conversation with a young lady yesterday who is 27 and has finally saved enough for a down-payment on a ($285,000 range) condo. The trouble is, the units she has seen so far are so small (very few even have a bedroom) she either has to give up the furniture that she has pre-purchased or received as gifts over the last few years (they won't fit) or move further out (and be forced to take the TTC that she hates) or look for work somewhere else (she is now looking in London and Kitchener for opportunities). Not a conversation I would have expected to have with a young, upwardly mobile well educated lady.

I think Toronto will increasingly find itself competing with smaller, more livable cities (better quality of life) rather than these young professionals surrendering and living in a unit so small they can't live a normal life.

And as a real estate agent, I show dozens and dozens of these units to disappointed people every week and many knuckle under and buy a unit - but many are not happy about it and I expect they will be looking to the suburbs once they start having children or the frustration with these claustrophobic units becomes unbearable. Longer commutes yes but these people will also be looking to other cities as well to reduce those commute times.

Design is not just about a building's exterior appearance or cladding.
 
North Americans need to re-think the definition of claustrophobic. Most people in other countries wouldn't consider these units to be so small. A fair exchange for being close to downtown services and conveniences.
 
Big Daddy said:
Agreed, but the size of these minuscule apartments is also an issue - and in addition, downtown intensification should include a downtown a relief line or transit improvements. Adding more and more people into an area with overcrowded transit is not a solution to traffic gridlock.

I had a conversation with a young lady yesterday who is 27 and has finally saved enough for a down-payment on a ($285,000 range) condo. The trouble is, the units she has seen so far are so small (very few even have a bedroom) she either has to give up the furniture that she has pre-purchased or received as gifts over the last few years (they won't fit) or move further out (and be forced to take the TTC that she hates) or look for work somewhere else (she is now looking in London and Kitchener for opportunities). Not a conversation I would have expected to have with a young, upwardly mobile well educated lady.

I think Toronto will increasingly find itself competing with smaller, more livable cities (better quality of life) rather than these young professionals surrendering and living in a unit so small they can't live a normal life.

And as a real estate agent, I show dozens and dozens of these units to disappointed people every week and many knuckle under and buy a unit - but many are not happy about it and I expect they will be looking to the suburbs once they start having children or the frustration with these claustrophobic units becomes unbearable. Longer commutes yes but these people will also be looking to other cities as well to reduce those commute times.

Design is not just about a building's exterior appearance or cladding.
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Honestly, it's a matter of personal choice and sacrifice. I'd much rather live in a smaller unit - even a studio condo - that is walkable to almost EVERYTHING than a smaller city where I have to drive. Living downtown, I can walk to restaurants, have easy access to culture, shopping and much more. Sure, there are malls in London, ON and St Catherines, but one can easily get sick and tired of the same chains. And to think that I have to drive at least an hour to go to the symphony, the opera or to see a really cool art exhibit is just not something I want to do. Heck, I'd rather raise a child in an 800 sq ft unit downtown than a 2,500 house in the 905.
 
I've always said that my house is where I eat, sleep and poop. Give me enough space for those things, and I'll be happy. Everything else that I'd ever want to do is out in the city.
 
Well said, prosperegal. People coming up are already adjusting to the smaller spaces available in the core. In a way, it's all they've ever known. And living in Toronto's core offers different opportunities from what you'd find in London, Guelph, K-W, or even Ottawa. So in a sense it's comparing apples to oranges.

On the other hand, I would agree with Big Daddy that design is about more than a building's exterior cladding - much, much more. There are all sorts of refinements and nuances to explore in what makes a condo unit truly attractive. Not all units are created equal. Caveat emptor, as ever, applies.
 
prosperegal said:
Honestly, it's a matter of personal choice and sacrifice. I'd much rather live in a smaller unit - even a studio condo - that is walkable to almost EVERYTHING than a smaller city where I have to drive. Living downtown, I can walk to restaurants, have easy access to culture, shopping and much more. Sure, there are malls in London, ON and St Catherines, but one can easily get sick and tired of the same chains. And to think that I have to drive at least an hour to go to the symphony, the opera or to see a really cool art exhibit is just not something I want to do. Heck, I'd rather raise a child in an 800 sq ft unit downtown than a 2,500 house in the 905.
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I really don't understand the appeal of enormous living spaces, especially if you don't have children.

For a little while we lived in a large apartment out in the suburbs. The experience was more depressing than anything. Most of the space in the apartment went unused. Rarely did we use anything but the bedroom, kitchen and washroom. Even the living room went mostly unused, though I did appreciate that space at times. The worst thing about it was living so far from everything. 40 minutes to get downtown, and a 20 minute walk to the nearest food place? No thanks.

Give me a bedroom, kitchen and washroom located downtown and I'll be satisfied. A bedroom, kitchen, washroom and living room with convenient connections downtown, and I'll have more than I'd ever need.
 
A large condo is a nice luxury particularly if you like to have guests or family visiting you and staying with you. As well, if you're like me and like to have dinner parties for six to eight, then having enough space to host the party is important.
 
Benito said:
A large condo is a nice luxury particularly if you like to have guests or family visiting you and staying with you. As well, if you're like me and like to have dinner parties for six to eight, then having enough space to host the party is important.
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Though to be fair, most condominium developments offer party rooms and other recreational spaces for just that purpose.
 
I loved my condo. But my wife did not want to live downtown. We tried it for a year and then moved to the suburbs. A house right next to a subway line. Still close enough for me but still far enough away for her. Sometimes compromises are made but i will say i have taken advantage of the basement with a donkey Kong and Mario machine and the backyard with a hot tub. I'm probably making more use of the space than she is.
 
someMidTowner said:
Though to be fair, most condominium developments offer party rooms and other recreational spaces for just that purpose.
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True but renting a party room is quite different from hosting a dinner party in one's home. Firstly, a party room has to be rented and is usually far to large for a party of eight. As well, I like to cook and bake in my own kitchen and not have to lug everything down to a party room.
 
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