penlasdle

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Hybrid wall is best seen on the east and west facades of King Charlotte. It was going to be a big thing in North America (many architectural firms had started speccing it), but when the Trump Administration decided that crippling Chinese tariffs were the best thing ever, the major supplier backed out of the North American market entirely.
I actually really like the King Charlotte glass and always thought it was curtain wall. I'm guessing hybrid-wall means the spandrel glass is also vision glass and is flush with the windows?
 

ProjectEnd

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If by "major supplier" you mean Jangho they had many, many, many other reasons to get out of here, well before Trump showed up. They were getting hammered as far back as... 2011? 2012? I know by 2013 they were bleeding bad. I think they just finished out their initial batch of jobs and then bailed.
It was Jangho, yes. Interesting context there, thanks! I wasn't aware that things were going south much earlier than that. I'd heard that their troubles started around 2016.
 

whatever

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It was Jangho, yes. Interesting context there, thanks! I wasn't aware that things were going south much earlier than that. I'd heard that their troubles started around 2016.

They had two disastrous towers in the Distillery (Clear Spirit and Gooderham), then they got killed at Ice, then I believe One Bloor East went (slightly) better for them, but by then they'd already given up on the market.

Lots of blame to go around, but they had piles of issues. Design, fabrication, shipping/logistics, installation, the whole thing. I think they tried shifting to a supply-only thing toward the end, but they got backcharged to oblivion.

But yeah, I think Clear Spirit was their first project, and that was off the rails by 2011. I think they bled quietly for awhile before the problems became widely known.
 

thaivic

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In the pouring rain…pour pour pouring!!!
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whatever

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I'm guessing hybrid-wall means the spandrel glass is also vision glass and is flush with the windows?

The technical difference between curtainwall and window wall is that curtainwall hangs off the slab, and window wall rests on the slab. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the basic idea. Jangho was selling their window wall as a "hybrid" because it was resting on the slab (like a window wall), but the anchors projected the frame forward so that the frame was sort of hanging in front of the slab. So functionally it was a window wall, but aesthetically it looks kind of like a curtainwall (if you don't look at it too carefully).

It does impact the appearance of the spandrel somewhat (the actual architectural "spandrel", not the colloquial "spandrel" that gets used on this forum). Architecturally, the spandrel is the horizontal structural member spanning the columns (usually the slab edge), and the "spandrel glass" or "spandrel panel" is the material that covers that edge. Because of the way windowwall needs to span the space between floors you usually end up with a small spandrel at the top and bottom of the frame, covering the header and sill, plus a third spandrel covering the slab edge. Curtainwall doesn't have to fit in between two slabs, so it can use a single spandrel panel (or piece of glass) to cover the header of the lower floor, the slab edge, and the sill of the upper floor. It lets you have cleaner lines and a less-busy look.

I'm probably getting off-topic. Don't want to derail the thread. Look, transfer slab!

Edit: This seems to be interesting to people, so just a quick addendum to illustrate the point. Here's Design Haus:

I think everyone hates this, but not everyone can explain why. This is a window wall problem. Remember that window wall frames are like Lego pieces that snap together to make a wall. Each piece has to sit on the floor and stop at the ceiling. That prompts this kind of configuration:

20210730_021132.jpg

The header panel must be discontinuous with the panel at the slab edge because they're two different frames. The panel covering the sill could be continuous with the panel covering the slab, but that's not popular because the frame itself doesn't lend itself to treating that space as a single cavity (the meaty part of the frame ends at the slab, and that's just a little scabbed on panel hanging down to cover the edge of concrete). And then because window wall is sold at a way cheaper price point than curtain wall it tends to get pressure pads and snap caps instead of structural glazing, which means each of those little pieces is being held in on all sides with trim. And this is why it often looks like a dog's breakfast. With a curtainwall frame the whole wall is sitting past the slab edge, so it's simple to just replace all of that with a single piece of material.
 
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Northern Light

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I would like to take a moment to express my appreciation to @whatever who has been full of interesting, technically-minded, but easily accessible posts over the last few days.

He's certainly not new to this type of contribution; but he's been on quite the roll as-of-late!

👍
 

Amare

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The technical difference between curtainwall and window wall is that curtainwall hangs off the slab, and window wall rests on the slab. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the basic idea. Jangho was selling their window wall as a "hybrid" because it was resting on the slab (like a window wall), but the anchors projected the frame forward so that the frame was sort of hanging in front of the slab. So functionally it was a window wall, but aesthetically it looks kind of like a curtainwall (if you don't look at it too carefully).

It does impact the appearance of the spandrel somewhat (the actual architectural "spandrel", not the colloquial "spandrel" that gets used on this forum). Architecturally, the spandrel is the horizontal structural member spanning the columns (usually the slab edge), and the "spandrel glass" or "spandrel panel" is the material that covers that edge. Because of the way windowwall needs to span the space between floors you usually end up with a small spandrel at the top and bottom of the frame, covering the header and sill, plus a third spandrel covering the slab edge. Curtainwall doesn't have to fit in between two slabs, so it can use a single spandrel panel (or piece of glass) to cover the header of the lower floor, the slab edge, and the sill of the upper floor. It lets you have cleaner lines and a less-busy look.

I'm probably getting off-topic. Don't want to derail the thread. Look, transfer slab!
Personally I dont mind if you "get-off topic" with these explanations. They are great insights and i've just learned a lot about windows.

Actually if anything, I feel like it's on topic because well, this building will apparently be using some sharp quality glass.
 

ushahid

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the amount of workers i've seen in the pics in last few days is more than usual. it's good to see them pouring more workforce into the project.... a good sign.
 

Bjays92

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Personally I dont mind if you "get-off topic" with these explanations. They are great insights and i've just learned a lot about windows.

Actually if anything, I feel like it's on topic because well, this building will apparently be using some sharp quality glass.
Absolutely on topic it's a technical explanation that relates the the various materials that could and are being used in this project. If all "off topic" discussions were like this, these threads would be filled with informative insightful comments.

It was very nice to understand the difference between window curtain walls. Visually I could always tell the difference but the technicality behind it is very nice to know.

Now to echo the sentiment of other members, holy sh!t they actually did it. I didnt think it was possible but they've done it. We have a transfer slab.
 

ProjectEnd

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The technical difference between curtainwall and window wall is that curtainwall hangs off the slab, and window wall rests on the slab. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the basic idea. Jangho was selling their window wall as a "hybrid" because it was resting on the slab (like a window wall), but the anchors projected the frame forward so that the frame was sort of hanging in front of the slab. So functionally it was a window wall, but aesthetically it looks kind of like a curtainwall (if you don't look at it too carefully).

It does impact the appearance of the spandrel somewhat (the actual architectural "spandrel", not the colloquial "spandrel" that gets used on this forum). Architecturally, the spandrel is the horizontal structural member spanning the columns (usually the slab edge), and the "spandrel glass" or "spandrel panel" is the material that covers that edge. Because of the way windowwall needs to span the space between floors you usually end up with a small spandrel at the top and bottom of the frame, covering the header and sill, plus a third spandrel covering the slab edge. Curtainwall doesn't have to fit in between two slabs, so it can use a single spandrel panel (or piece of glass) to cover the header of the lower floor, the slab edge, and the sill of the upper floor. It lets you have cleaner lines and a less-busy look.

I'm probably getting off-topic. Don't want to derail the thread. Look, transfer slab!
Thanks! Couldn't have explained it better.

As before, Jangho's product is clearest seen in King Charlotte:

ZmDV1Qr.jpg

Picture by @scamander24
 

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whatever

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Thanks! Couldn't have explained it better.

As before, Jangho's product is clearest seen in King Charlotte:

ZmDV1Qr.jpg

Picture by @scamander24
I could be wrong, but that looks like true curtainwall and not the hybrid thing they used elsewhere. It's subtle, but it's got a couple giveaways as curtainwall: a) it's using standard cast-in anchors (the hybrid system had a piece of sill track cantilevered off of a pair of anchors), b) the frame is extending up above the slab edge (the hybrid had a pair of anchors on the underside of slab to trap the top of the frame), and c) the bottom of frame appears to be resting in a sill attached to the frame below (the hybrid wall had no true continuity between floors). You can see it a bit more in this other photo by @scamander24


The hybrid wall (which I'm certain was part of the debacle at Ice) is a little harder to pick out because of that band of frosted glass that wraps the tower, but you can see it here by @caltrane74


You can see there how the sill track is hanging off the slab, and the frames therefore don't have to fit within the floor-to-ceiling opening, allowing for a single panel to cover the transition between floors
 

ProjectEnd

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King Charlotte is a weird one, yes, especially with everything you note and because of the notches visible in the slab. I even thought twice about posting that picture, TBH. The only reason I'd still say that it is (I'm even hesitant to use that language) is that the architect at aA is a friend who worked on the project and when we were exploring curtain wall options for a later building, it was recommended that we go look at that one as precedent. I can ask him again if he's sure.
 

wmedia

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I believe the new Delta hotel on Simcoe also used a hybrid-wall system, but I may have dreamed/imagined/hallucinated that, so don't quote me on it.
 

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