Edward Skira

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I think he's alluding to the fact that it'll be worse in Toronto since our casino will be run by multinational companies which will mean money leaving the city.

By that reasoning everything in Toronto must be owned locally to stop money from flowing out. Obviously a ludicrous notion.
 

ddvalentino

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"If anything Toronto has more in common with Singapore, Berlin, and Melbourne than the typical struggling North American city with a casino."

I live in Singapore now after leaving Toronto last summer, and i disagree. Toronto has much more in common with the typical struggling North American city with a casino than it does with Singapore. Totally different culture here, with a much more firm rule-of-law mindset coupled with a Chinese gaming heritage (Singapore is almost 80% ethnic Chinese) making a comparison pretty far fetched. The Singaporean is also far more mall-focused and materialistic than Torontonians. The up-shot is a love for large institutional venues for gaming and entertainment where people don't step out of line. Prostitution is legal and practiced in brothels not on street corners, and drug abuse is virtually unheard of due to the cane and death to drug smugglers. Also booze is twice, if not three times the price as it is in Toronto, so the problems people see around casinos in North America, are not going to be a problem here for systematic reasons. I guess what I'm saying is using Singapore as being emblematic of the potential for a casino's success in Toronto is like comparing apples and durians.
 
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unimaginative2

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He never linked Montreal to multinationals, just pointed out that the money purportedly generated by tourists was really coming out of locals.

I think he's alluding to the fact that it'll be worse in Toronto since our casino will be run by multinational companies which will mean money leaving the city.

Did you read the quote:

In Montreal, virtually 93% of the casino's revenue came straight out of the local economy (MacIasac 1994:38). This means that money bet at the casino wasn’t spent on clothes, rent or food locally, it was sent to the multi-national operator of the gambling facility.

That looks like a pretty strong link there to me. I'm not sure how "the casino" in the second sentence could be interpreted as different from "the casino" in the first.
 

11th

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What an awfully limiting view of things. Toronto can be compared to the likes of Detroit and Niagara Falls but somehow Singapore is too different? Come on. There's nothing about Asian and European cities that makes them incomparable to Toronto for conversations like this. If anything Toronto has more in common with Singapore, Berlin, and Melbourne than the typical struggling North American city with a casino.
Scroll up, it was comparison with the likes of Vancouver, Montreal, and Ottawa, and now you throw Detroit and Niagara Falls into the mix. Do you see Chicago plotting a casino within the Loop? (people have the tendency to compare Toronto with Chicago)
 

67Cup

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So Singapore has legal prostitution? I didn't know that. Maybe a legal brothel at the site would be an improvement. After all, the punters are much more likely to get something for their money than the gamblers. Count me as one of the people who doesn't like the idea of a casino.

But I know I'm a minority on this one.
 

ddvalentino

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I'm with you 67Cup. I don't like the idea either.

BTW: The brothels in Singapore aren't anywhere near the casino, and like everything in Singapore, they are kept quiet and orderly. I just saw them the other night for the first time in a district called Geylang which is also known for good food. The area has a super seedy vibe.
 

jje1000

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That looks like a pretty strong link there to me. I'm not sure how "the casino" in the second sentence could be interpreted as different from "the casino" in the first.

Regardless, our casino will be the latter, since it will be run by a multinational corporation.
 

unimaginative2

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Regardless, our casino will be the latter, since it will be run by a multinational corporation.

My point was the carelessness with which Vaughan constructs his arguments. That whole letter is riddled with deeply flawed arguments: did crime go up in Atlantic City because of the casinos or because crime was going up everywhere in cities like that at that time? Did the bars and restaurants near the casino close because of the casino or because a casino isn't a panacea for an otherwise dying neighbourhood? He keeps referring to deeply troubled cities like St. Louis and Atlantic City, but doesn't talk much about places like London, Paris, and Melbourne, which seem to be doing just fine with casinos.

Scroll up, it was comparison with the likes of Vancouver, Montreal, and Ottawa, and now you throw Detroit and Niagara Falls into the mix. Do you see Chicago plotting a casino within the Loop? (people have the tendency to compare Toronto with Chicago)

Uh...
 
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Miscreant

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If they're based on facts, which seems to be in dispute here, I find Vaughan's arguments persuasive...
 

mjl08

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Making a case for the casino via a money generation argument is one thing. Arguing that it will be hub of culture and urbanity is another.

I think the casino will attract the same crowd that goes to Town Country Buffet and Captain John's - senior charters, bus tours, and retirement parties. Hardly Monaco. Developers are banking on the suburban 905 crowd, but the condo blitz in the Entertainment District and increased competition from clubs in York and Peel leads one to wonder whether the area will still be a suburban playground a decade from now.
 

jje1000

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My point was the carelessness with which Vaughan constructs his arguments. That whole letter is riddled with deeply flawed arguments: did crime go up in Atlantic City because of the casinos or because crime was going up everywhere in cities like that at that time? Did the bars and restaurants near the casino close because of the casino or because a casino isn't a panacea for an otherwise dying neighbourhood?[/URL]

I don't quite see them as flawed arguments, just non-specific and formed to suit his views. The same would really go for the arguments that casino proponents are making (e.g. thousands of well-paying jobs, $100 million in city revenue, etc.).
 

unimaginative2

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I don't quite see them as flawed arguments, just non-specific and formed to suit his views. The same would really go for the arguments that casino proponents are making (e.g. thousands of well-paying jobs, $100 million in city revenue, etc.).

There's a bit of a difference between saying "St. Louis is in bad shape, St. Louis has a casino, therefore the casino destroyed St. Louis and will do the same to Toronto," and saying that a casino of a certain size would employ a certain number of people. Mind you, I'm sure some casino proponents are also making some outlandish claims.
 

Torontovibe

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My point was the carelessness with which Vaughan constructs his arguments. That whole letter is riddled with deeply flawed arguments: did crime go up in Atlantic City because of the casinos or because crime was going up everywhere in cities like that at that time? Did the bars and restaurants near the casino close because of the casino or because a casino isn't a panacea for an otherwise dying neighbourhood? He keeps referring to deeply troubled cities like St. Louis and Atlantic City, but doesn't talk much about places like London, Paris, and Melbourne, which seem to be doing just fine with casinos.

Uh...


People keep comparing this development to London's casinos but the casinos in London are tiny by comparison. Most of the casinos in London are very small and require membership or a membership fee to enter. They are not used by the general public. London's largest casino is only 55,000 sf. It has hardly any slot machines, compared to the casinos in North America. The Toronto casino will be 10 times the size of London's largest casino, so obviously, we are talking about 2 completely different situations here. The casinos of London are mainly small, exclusive clubs for the well to do, not huge tacky barns, for middle class old folks, soccer moms and Woodbridge boys living in their mother's basement.
 

Tewder

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The target audience of this is irrelevant, as it is with the aquarium or the CN Tower or the convention centre. This is a tourist zone, plain and simple, and in this context a casino is more than appropriate.
 

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