[kEiThZ]

One question I have is how much more capacity there will be on the Yonge line after the TRs are in service?

Perhaps they could do Yonge and max out the number of trains while they build the DRL.

 

[nfitz]

My mistake. They put the DRL on par with a Jane LRT.

My point being that they certainly didn't think it was that much a priority. If the DRL was that much of a priority why was the first transit project under the Miller/Giambrone regime Sheppard East?

Because we could quickly build 6 major surface LRT lines for about $6 to $8-billion which is probably less than the DRL will cost. It was a genius move!

How can anybody expect Metrolinx to take the need for the DRL seriously when the first project that administration asked for was Sheppard East? And Eglinton and Finch West after that?

Again ... where do you get this stuff? They asked for the Spadina subway extension long before they asked for Sheppard and Finch West.

 

[rbt]

One question I have is how much more capacity there will be on the Yonge line after the TRs are in service?

All of the planned Yonge line enhancements will keep up with the existing growth trend without any expansion but don't really have any additional overhead.

Of course, a $1 fare increase over the next 3 years might change that growth curve a tiny bit.

 

[nfitz]

One question I have is how much more capacity there will be on the Yonge line after the TRs are in service?

Immediately - not much I wouldn't think. There are some moderate gains in capacity with the cars themselves, but they won't load/unload much, if any, faster, so they'll either have to dwell longer at Bloor, or leave emptier.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Sorry, I meant how much more capacity for additional trains will there be after the 60 TRs are in service. What I have in mind is that they extend Yonge but stuff as many trains on the line as they can, while they build the DRL.

 

[kEiThZ]

Because we could quickly build 6 major surface LRT lines for about $6 to $8-billion which is probably less than the DRL will cost. It was a genius move!

Genius move? You don't think it sends the wrong message about priorities?...or at least the priority of the DRL?

Again ... where do you get this stuff? They asked for the Spadina subway extension long before they asked for Sheppard and Finch West.

Yet another project ranked above the DRL. Though, mind you, we all know this had more to do with Sorbara than anything else.

But again, you aren't following along. It is Toronto City Council that has consistently ranked various projects ahead of the DRL. Why blame Yorkies for Toronto's mistakes? By your own admission, they ranked a lot of TC ahead of the DRL because they thought they could game Metrolinx. Things didn't work out and now you think we should blame York region? How does that make sense?

If the DRL was a priority they should have asked for it from day one, just as York region has always been up front about the Spadina and Yonge subways (and the myriad of GO and Viva projects). There was no need to concoct some kind of "genius move" in the hopes that they could get the DRL later. I would suggest that it was never a priority until York region started pushing for the Yonge line and Miller/Giambrone realized that if the province pushed that forward, there would be serious consequences. I think they really thought that they could get buys with the TRs while they worked on their real priority (killing off suburban subways).

 

[nfitz]

Genius move? You don't think it sends the wrong message about priorities?...or at least the priority of the DRL?

Pushing the DRL is a huge waste of political capital. At best you might get funding for this.

But it seems clear that the Yonge extension is going to get approved at some point in the next decade. And it's quite clear that to build Yonge, you need the DRL.

TTC is likely to get more funding for expansion if they push projects other than the DRL hard, not push the Yonge extension, keep the DRL on a slow-burn, but make it clear that without it, the Yonge extension fails.

Seems to me that strategy has worked, with over $10-billion of transit expansion funding for Spadina and Eglinton/Scarborough ... and we all know that Yonge and DRL are inevitable. We could easily have 4 major projects completed by 2025 ... Sheppard too, on the remote chance the Fords somehow manages to secure funding.

 

[drum118]

Well!! we have waited 101 years after the residents of Toronto approved it and 103 after first propossed. What is another 25 years going to look like before we see any construction on it??

Ahhhhh!!! what great vision, planning and the political games can do for transit.

 

[jaycola]

What seems to be getting lost here is the intent by the province to create density nodes throughout the GTA and the Golden Horseshoe. Remember the "Urban Growth Centres". Maybe some of you need to have a look at the report to refresh your memories.

http://www.ontla.on.ca/library/repository/mon/10000/250457.pdf

Bill 136, the Places to Grow Act 2005, provides a legal framework for the Ontario government to designate geographic areas in the province as growth areas. The goal of Bill 136 (also know as the "Growth Plans" is to create growth plans that promote a rational and balanced approach to growth in the Greater Golden Horseshoe Area (GGHA) that builds on existing infrastructure and services. The Growth Plan's focus is on intensification in built up areas, urban growth centres, major transit corridors and stations, brownfields and greyfields sites. These areas will provide the focus for transit and infrastructure investment to support growth. York's four Regional Centres have been recognized in the Places to Grow Act as designated urban growth areas. How York will accommodate the Provincial Growth Plans is the subject of a separate study.

The purpose of these density nodes is to allow and encourage growth, both residential and commercial, while taking pressure off of the environment, roads and existing services. Projects such as the Yonge extension will do just that.

This is not simply a case of moving people from the Suburbs into the CBD but encouraging growth of urban centres in York Region, Peel Region, Halton and the outer burbs so people can change their travel routes, choice of neighbourhood and even the job they choose because of proximity and ease of access.
The goal is to create new urban centres.

Richmond Hill Centre

Langstaff Gateway

Thornhill Markham

Thornhill Vaughan

The above planned developments are in that narrow corridor between Steeles and Hwy 7 along Yonge Street. Add to this the anticipated development on Yonge between Finch and Steeles within the city of Toronto and there is an opportunity to create a true urban hub in the north end of Toronto.

I suggest it is better to support the planned subway extension and encourage growth in the outlying urban centres as a means of relieving pressure on existing services rather than strangling growth based on outdated 416 vs 905 attitudes.

 

[GenerationW]

Miller and Giambrone were the first politicians to seriously discuss the DRL in decades.

Hardly! At the ECLRT community meetings in 2009, Giambrone thought a DRL might be a possibility but only after TC was completed. He also ignored recent history by dismissing York Region's chances of pushing the Yonge extension through. Miller and Giambrone scrambled to "seriously discuss the DRL" only after York caught Toronto completely unaware as Yonge gained significant momentum in the latter stages of '09. M&G and City Council were reactive and never proactive regarding the DRL.

Again ... where do you get this stuff? They asked for the Spadina subway extension long before they asked for Sheppard and Finch West.

Asked for a Spadina subway extension??? How could that be when Miller (the first term version) was asking for a Sheppard subway extension?

Pushing the DRL is a huge waste of political capital. At best you might get funding for this.

What a horrible outcome that would be!

But it seems clear that the Yonge extension is going to get approved at some point in the next decade. And it's quite clear that to build Yonge, you need the DRL.

TTC is likely to get more funding for expansion if they push projects other than the DRL hard, not push the Yonge extension, keep the DRL on a slow-burn, but make it clear that without it, the Yonge extension fails.

If it happens that way, great!

But what if the Province and Ottawa come together with Metrolinx and York Region (which sounds vaguely familiar), fund Yonge, and tell Toronto that it's a done deal, and that there is no money for a DRL? There would be no one for Toronto to appeal to, and no convincing case to be made since a DRL had never been a priority for Toronto.

And if ignoring the DRL/keeping it on a slow-burn is such a great idea, then Ford must be the perfect successor to Miller and Giambrone.

 

[nfitz]

Hardly!

What do you mean hardly ... further down you say

Miller and Giambrone scrambled to "seriously discuss the DRL"

Hang on ... here you say they did seriously discuss it. You can't have it both ways.

Asked for a Spadina subway extension??? How could that be when Miller (the first term version) was asking for a Sheppard subway extension?

In February 2005 council passed a motion that the Spadina Subway Extension to Steeles Avenue is Toronto’s top priority for subway expansion. Why are you trying to rewrite history?

 

[Disparishun]

I barely get to these forums anymore, but dipped in again today, and couldn't resist replying on a couple of points.

I'm referring to those who use the TTC in Toronto. That extra fare only pays for the TTC service in Region of York. Essentially that is Region of York service being provided on contract by TTC. Personally I'd charge those not resident in Toronto a double fare, so those crossing Steeles on a TTC bus would pay triple fare.

I don't know -- it might get complicated.

1) Would tourists, who don't live in Toronto, be double-fare or triple-fare? What about visiting diplomats? And how about if your cousin visits with you in your apartment on the south side of Steeles, but then gets mad and stays with your parents a block north -- do they pay tourist rate, Toronto rate, or 905 rate?

I think it would probably just be easier to issue a special discount card to those who pay tax in Toronto. So if you own real estate in Toronto you get the special taxpayer's rate, and if you don't own real estate in Toronto you pay full freight.

2) Some would say that the discount you get should be commensurate with how much you subsidize the TTC as a taxpayer. If I live in Vaughan and own a huge Toronto apartment building, and consequently pay massive tax, then shouldn't I get a much deeper discount than some guy with a tiny little 60s-era North York condo who barely subsidizes the TTC at all?

Others would say that if you own property, you're probably just passing the cost of your TTC-subsidizing property tax to your lessees. To me that is a private arrangement, although I can see how maybe the taxpayer should be required to lend the discount card to the lessees.

The only problem there is that, logically, then you end up saying that employees (or maybe shareholders?) of companies that pay commercial real estate tax to subsidize the TTC should get discount cards, too. And then you still have 905ers hogging the TORONTO transit system!

Im suggesting a DRL that goes to sheppard so all the scarborough residents and the immediate area North york residents use the DRL versus the yonge line. That way Yonge can grow in density which it will (Y&E, Y&L, Y&S, Y&F, 905, actually any major intersection on yonge will eventually become very dense).

Let me float the following, as I have done from time to time. Wouldn't there be more bang for the buck by retrofitting the GO Richmond Hill line to do some of this? It wouldn't really be a DRL, but it would do what you are talking about for North York and Scarborough.

Instead of tunnelling from scratch, convert the above-ground GO RH into an above-ground LRT:

- add a downtown stop somewhere (College?);
- intersect an Eglinton stop with the Eglinton LRT;
- integrate Oriole GO and Leslie subway station;
- integrate Old Cummer GO with TTC bus service; and
- add a Steeles stop.

Only two GO corridors could meaningfully relief Yonge; those are Richmond Hill and Stouffville. Currently, both have very low capacity, and are not scheduled for major enhancements.

Why not? Has anyone seriously looked at this? There would surely be all kinds of institutional hurdles, between who owns what tracks and which agency can play nicely with which. I get that. But surely these are solvable problems.

 

[JoeParez]

- add a downtown stop somewhere (College?);
- intersect an Eglinton stop with the Eglinton LRT;
- integrate Oriole GO and Leslie subway station;
- integrate Old Cummer GO with TTC bus service; and
- add a Steeles stop.

Why does it be LRT? Why can't it continue to be GO?
And on top of that, I always wonder why there aren't more Toronto GO stops; there is a huge gap between the Oriole and Union GO Stations. (Sorry I am not too familiar with the way GO and how the plan).

 

[Disparishun]

Why does it be LRT? Why can't it continue to be GO?
And on top of that, I always wonder why there aren't more Toronto GO stops; there is a huge gap between the Oriole and Union GO Stations. (Sorry I am not too familiar with the way GO and how the plan).

Sorry, just using LRT as the term I know best for frequent (< 10 min) all-day service of the type that doesn't need advance scheduling on the part of the rider. I assume it would be hard to do that with diesel trains, but whatever works.

 

[smallspy]

And on top of that, I always wonder why there aren't more Toronto GO stops; there is a huge gap between the Oriole and Union GO Stations. (Sorry I am not too familiar with the way GO and how the plan).

The simple answer is geography. The line runs down the (East) Don Valley.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.