JasonParis
Moderator
While not a huge priority for the system, I do feel this would be a good opportunity for Toronto's first subway line branch - Line 2A to Sherway and Line 2B to Cloverdale.
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CapitalSeven
Active Member
Branches? Careful the TTC's corporate head will explode if you say that out loud, or even think about interlining.
BB ON
Active Member
I feel like they could jockey the station west enough to mop up Cloverdale and still have enough room to veer south to Sherway (e.g. the Food Basics parking lot) and avoid the branch, but I'd prefer if they put a station on the Honeydale grounds to keep it near the CP ROW and and redeveloped that whole wasteland between Shorncliffe and EM.
I wonder what kind of ridership there'd be with a branch that ran up the 427
turini2
Active Member
Depends if they can get the developers of Sherway/Cloverdale Mall to stump up some cash.
Combined with a very modest extension of the line to serve the (long proposed) Obico Western Subway Yard - I could see this happening, esp. if built as elevated.
No need for super large bus terminal either - given the new regional one at Kipling.
I personally would prefer an extension just to Cloverdale - shorter distance and easier to build (no need to cross Highway 427).
Northern Light
Superstar
An extension to Cloverdale has an excellent case.
That said, the Sherway Garden site as-is, is a very large employer; redevelopment here will make it a major population node as well; there's also a hospital across the street (more or less), which is set to get considerably larger in the years ahead.
So the case for Sherway is not without merit.
I think I would argue here for a continuous build extension to Sherway.
ie. build to Cloverdale, open Cloverdale then just keep going. This is a way to lower the incremental cost of construction and pick up additional riders long before the entire extension is complete.
In terms of compelling business case vs other extensions/investments; I would argue it clearly ranks behind extending Line 5 (Egilinton) into Pearson, but after that......its case relative to other subway projects in the pipeline isn't uncompetitive.
I would, however, rank it below upgrading Milton GO to 2-way, all-day, 30M or better service.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Maybe to Cloverdale and then head south from there to Sherway, and even Long Branch for a Lakeshore connection.
crs1026
Senior Member
Sherway is going to grow as a ridership center, but I’m not sure that justifies bending Line 2 - which is a backbone route - southwards.
The case for an extension to Cloverdale is very strong, but to go further south ? There is so much ridership coming across the border from Mississauga…and the catchment for that ridership extends north to about Rathburn. I would preserve a more northern route. Getting bus and auto traffic off Bloor and Dundas streets (the parking lots at Kipling are huge) won’t happen if Line 2 goes southwards.
Unless someone has data showing huge density eventually at Sherway, I would build an LRT westwards along the Queensway from wherever the Ontario Line ends up, and possibly south to a hub at Long Branch. Possibly On Kipling as well. It’s time for Etobicoke to invest in cheaper LRT, the vanity subway movement should end with Eglinton West.
We need to come to terms with how long a subway ought to be. If we only think incrementally, we will keep pushing Line 2 through Peel and Halton all the way to Milton…. and Line 1 all the way north to Aurora and Barrie ! We need to determine where the next longstanding terminal point will be, otherwise these lines will compete with the regional GO lines instead of integrating with them. I can see the case for taking Line 2 to Mississauga City Center, but not necessarily any further. Alternatively, while Sherway may be an area to be served, it certainly isn’t a potential terminal point. Going there only makes sense if the line is on the way to someplace else.
- Paul
The case for an extension to Cloverdale is very strong, but to go further south ? There is so much ridership coming across the border from Mississauga…and the catchment for that ridership extends north to about Rathburn. I would preserve a more northern route. Getting bus and auto traffic off Bloor and Dundas streets (the parking lots at Kipling are huge) won’t happen if Line 2 goes southwards.
Unless someone has data showing huge density eventually at Sherway, I would build an LRT westwards along the Queensway from wherever the Ontario Line ends up, and possibly south to a hub at Long Branch. Possibly On Kipling as well. It’s time for Etobicoke to invest in cheaper LRT, the vanity subway movement should end with Eglinton West.
We need to come to terms with how long a subway ought to be. If we only think incrementally, we will keep pushing Line 2 through Peel and Halton all the way to Milton…. and Line 1 all the way north to Aurora and Barrie ! We need to determine where the next longstanding terminal point will be, otherwise these lines will compete with the regional GO lines instead of integrating with them. I can see the case for taking Line 2 to Mississauga City Center, but not necessarily any further. Alternatively, while Sherway may be an area to be served, it certainly isn’t a potential terminal point. Going there only makes sense if the line is on the way to someplace else.
- Paul
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ericmacm
Active Member
I think that Metrolinx should go whole hog and just extend it to MCC in one go, to connect with the Hurontario LRT so it isn't isolated from the rest of the network. It'll be more costly than just going to Sherway, but it'll be a major ridership node bigger than either Sherway or Cloverdale.
The big challenge here is not duplicating service provided by either the Mississauga Transitway, Dundas BRT, Hurontario LRT, or Milton Line. From an ease of alignment perspective, going through Cloverdale makes more sense since it's closer to Kipling, but it'll also directly be on the east end of the Dundas BRT so there would be a duplication there. From a ridership perspective, going through Sherway makes more sense given the fact that it's a bigger employment node (incl the hospital), will see more residential density, and the developers are already taking line alignment protection into account. I think in this case, Sherway naturally makes the most sense.
Beyond Sherway is the most difficult part because the line would have to both not duplicate the Milton Line or the Hurontario LRT but still reach MCC.
The big challenge here is not duplicating service provided by either the Mississauga Transitway, Dundas BRT, Hurontario LRT, or Milton Line. From an ease of alignment perspective, going through Cloverdale makes more sense since it's closer to Kipling, but it'll also directly be on the east end of the Dundas BRT so there would be a duplication there. From a ridership perspective, going through Sherway makes more sense given the fact that it's a bigger employment node (incl the hospital), will see more residential density, and the developers are already taking line alignment protection into account. I think in this case, Sherway naturally makes the most sense.
Beyond Sherway is the most difficult part because the line would have to both not duplicate the Milton Line or the Hurontario LRT but still reach MCC.
afransen
Senior Member
I can't. What purpose would it serve? Upgrade Milton line (whatever it costs to get it done), and people can ride from MCC to Kipling in far less time.
Coruscanti Cognoscente
Senior Member
Milton line doesn't hit Square One unless you dig a huge ass tunnel to get there.
afransen
Senior Member
Huge ass tunnel? We're talking about extending Line 2 to MCC. A few km of tunnel vs 12 from Kipling. Upgrading Milton Line would be much more useful to Mississauga than Line 2 extension.
dullturtle06
New Member
agree, and with Toronto subway construction prices 12 km of subway would be around 8 billion. so rather put that money into all day 2 way Milton go with MCC center tunnel.
Northern Light
Superstar
Without advocating for or against, but to contribute here, I mapped out what I believe an MCC tunnel for the Milton GO line would look like in terms of placement and distance.
I would defer to those w/greater expertise than I, in saying I may not have it quite right.
I used only the simple assumptions that:
It must start and end at the existing Milton GO Line (assuming through service)
You want it as straight as possible, with gentle curves.
In the route layout above, I have bypassed Erindale station, one could choose to include that, but it either means a more southerly alignment (right along Burnamthorpe) , or a significant curve to the south at the western extent of the tunnel.
I would defer to those w/greater expertise than I, in saying I may not have it quite right.
I used only the simple assumptions that:
It must start and end at the existing Milton GO Line (assuming through service)
You want it as straight as possible, with gentle curves.
In the route layout above, I have bypassed Erindale station, one could choose to include that, but it either means a more southerly alignment (right along Burnamthorpe) , or a significant curve to the south at the western extent of the tunnel.
afransen
Senior Member
My two cents:
- I don't think it needs to be a tunnel. Roads in Mississauga are wide and an elevated alignment could be used. This would necessitate converting Milton Line to lighter trains, like single level EMUs or even just light metro.
- Burnhamthorpe is particularly wide and was intended for transit to run down it at some point.
That said, I would retain a station at Cooksville, go up Confederation to Burnhamthorpe, and run down Burnhamthorpe to Erindale GO and resume in the Rail ROW. The intersection of Confederation and Burnhamthorpe would be tight with M City. But the station could be on the east side of Confederation south of Burnhamthorpe to maximize the curve radius. If that is too tight, I would suggest departing from the rail ROW east of Hurontario, up to Burnhamthorpe around Robert Speck.
crs1026
Senior Member
^I haven’t seen much detail in terms of either residential or employment numbers for the planned redevelopment at Sherway, but one can’t justify a heavy rail line to a mall. Even with new development, won’t an LRT or two suffice?
I would be perfectly happy with stopping at Cloverdale altogether - it’s a much more logical place for a hub than Kipling. (Maybe the only recently opened terminal at Kipling could be converted to the world’s most expensive farmer’s market.)
While it’s not the plan (yet), Dundas is the only east west street in east Mississauga that can handle transit oriented density. If we are saying we want Line 2 to extend further, shoudn’t we scrap the BRT, rezone Dundas to some higher TOD value, and run the subway there?
Above all, we should have the whole Transit City style subway vs LRT debate all over again, with a new territory but the same basic theme…. why tunnel at all when we can build far more kms of surface (or elevated) LRT for the same price? Is density in Mississauga reaching the levels where we really need subways? Can an LRT to Sherway handle whatever ridership we project?
The idea of converting the Milton Line to something else and making a diversion is really interesting. I wonder how well it could meet the needs of those commuting from Lisgar or Milton…. that’s a long ride.
- Paul
I would be perfectly happy with stopping at Cloverdale altogether - it’s a much more logical place for a hub than Kipling. (Maybe the only recently opened terminal at Kipling could be converted to the world’s most expensive farmer’s market.)
While it’s not the plan (yet), Dundas is the only east west street in east Mississauga that can handle transit oriented density. If we are saying we want Line 2 to extend further, shoudn’t we scrap the BRT, rezone Dundas to some higher TOD value, and run the subway there?
Above all, we should have the whole Transit City style subway vs LRT debate all over again, with a new territory but the same basic theme…. why tunnel at all when we can build far more kms of surface (or elevated) LRT for the same price? Is density in Mississauga reaching the levels where we really need subways? Can an LRT to Sherway handle whatever ridership we project?
The idea of converting the Milton Line to something else and making a diversion is really interesting. I wonder how well it could meet the needs of those commuting from Lisgar or Milton…. that’s a long ride.
- Paul