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adma

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Alstom

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TRC1163.jpg
 

CGM

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^... Good call. I like this design... very unique. We need a "Toronto" streetcar.
 

Prometheus The Supremo

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would it really have that finish though? how would it stand up to our weather and winter salt & sand scum that can be very abrasive?
 

Whoaccio

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This is a mockup, it's not quite so vibrant but still pretty sleek imo.

Maquette_Tram_Reims.JPG
 

Cbab

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I just want to disclaim a little bit and mention that I've only read the first 2, and last 2 pages of replies, so forgive me if I point out anything that's been said already.

I think Toronto has been forced into a situation where they have no choice but to maximize what they can do with their "streetcar infrastructure". The only true options they would have, as I see it, are the following:

1) Take selected main lines and turn them into streetcar-only roadways from open to close-of-business (which would be next to impossible).

2) Bury the entire system underground, giving a metropolis of 3 million people more than 2.5 subway lines to choose from. Again, this is about as likely to happen as a TTC fare-freeze, I know.

3) Dismantle the streetcar fleet, and funnel all of that funding into either increasing its bio-diesel bus fleet, or investing in electric buses like those being used in Massachusetts (they could even potentially make use of the existing streetcar wires).

My personal ire with streetcars stems from the fact that Toronto seems to be hanging onto them with a strong sense of nostalgia. True, we're one of the last cities in North America to have them. Perhaps there's a reason for that? Perhaps other cities have realized the inanity of having to get out and use a big stick to get your vehicle back on the power grid in this day and age? Perhaps other cities have realized that it doesn't make any sense to have a vehicle which can't switch lanes, potentially clogging an entire roadway when it breaks down or gets blocked by some other obstacle in front of it (not to mention preventing all of the streetcars behind it from going anywhere).

And let's also not forget about the stifling effect of politics from neighbouring cities like Mississauga which refuse to play nice with Toronto and actually merge two disparate transit systems into one coherent unit.

Streetcars in Toronto will continue to act as the houseguest that refuses to leave, consuming more resources year over year, whilst serving no greater purpose as time goes on.

A cynical view perhaps. But I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong.
 

Hipster Duck

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^I largely agree with you that streetcars haven't really done this city any favours; if we would have had a full Queen street subway by now, nothing between Parkdale and the Beaches would be more than a one kilometer (15 minute) walk from a subway station and a bus along Dundas and College would have probably done the trick. The threat that streetcar proponents trot out - that the organic, independent retail nature of Queen street would be subsumed by a North York Centre parade of massive condos - is complete rubbish, given that the subway didn't change the fundamental makeup of Bloor west of Spadina, or the Danforth, or most of Yonge street. It, in fact, enhanced it.

Of course, being a streetcar opponent in this city is kind of like being a Republican in San Francisco or a Pequiste in Westmount...you're just not going to be all that popular. Even worse, most streetcar opponents in this city also happen to be CAA types that are anti-transit, in general. You'll have a tough time convincing Torontonians that you don't think that streetcars are the greatest thing since sliced bread, yet you strongly believe in better public transit.

Alas, streetcars have sealed the fate of subways south of Bloor and, with the Transit City plan, for the rest of the city as well.
 

Jayomatic

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That Alstom is a perfect shape for the TTC. The TTC Logo would fit perfectly on the front of that. Just picture the ttc logo as a panel running along that edge where the windshield wiper is.
 

MisterF

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Hipster and Cbab: there seem to be two kinds of streetcar proponents: Those who think streetcars are better than buses, and those who think streetcars are better than subways. Don't lump us all in with the latter.

Replacing the downtown streetcars with subways is great, but replacing them with buses is a step backward.
 

Whoaccio

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Streetcars are also the beneficiaries of some creative accounting. Unlike a few other transit systems, the TTC doesn't hold it's debt on it's books. So when the City or Province dishes out millions in order to repair streetcar tracks or a few billion for new cars, the capital costs are not included on the TTC's fare recovery. As it is, S/C legacy routes have no obvious operating costs savings over buses. Where capital costs included in the cost recovery, this would drop well below bus levels.

(yes, I am aware roads require repaving on a regular basis as well, but if you assigned a figure of these costs to the bus fleet on a pro rata basis, I doubt it would be very much.)
 

Cbab

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Hipster and Cbab: there seem to be two kinds of streetcar proponents: Those who think streetcars are better than buses, and those who think streetcars are better than subways. Don't lump us all in with the latter.

Replacing the downtown streetcars with subways is great, but replacing them with buses is a step backward.

Nothing of the sort sir. :)

And I agree that subways > buses as a replacement for the SC fleet. But would be quite a utopian option.

The main point of my post was that as a city, Toronto seems to be looking at the notion of replacing streetcars with anything as almost blasphemous. There are other options out there, but due to the overwhelming cost, and the apparent reluctance to embrace change where transit is concerned, those options go deliberately overlooked.
 

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