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TOareaFan

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yet no mention of time differences between both methods including transfer time to get downtown.

I imagine the folks at the "skipped" stops might tell you that their bus trips/transfers to the subway will take longer than they would have had with the lrt option.....so. i think, the 3 stop v 7 stop discussion is also capturing an element of speed to
 

TheTigerMaster

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the "seven stop vs 3 stop" thing is bullshit, they always throw that in there as it makes the uneducated think that the subway is way shorter.

As someone who supports the subway rapid transit option over the LRT rapid transit for the SRT corridor, I'd say the fact that the subway RT has four less stops is a pretty big deal that people absolutely do need to know about.
 
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TheTigerMaster

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Majority of Toronto residents prefer Scarborough LRT over subway: poll

http://www.citynews.ca/2014/02/03/m...ents-prefer-scarborough-lrt-over-subway-poll/

The majority of Toronto residents — and those in Scarborough — prefer a light-rail transit over a subway in the east end, according to a recent poll.

An independent survey conducted by Leger found that 61 per cent of voters preferred a seven-stop LRT line over a three-stop subway extension that would lead to a $1-billion tax increase over 30 years. Thirty-nine per cent of those polled preferred a subway.

.....

Not exactly surprising. We have to remember that we're asking Torontonians to pay upwards of $1000 for subway rapid transit that at best is a marginal improvement over the light rail rapid transit. If this were $1000 for a Relief Line or Eglinton LRT I think the result would be very different.

Also I think people are recognizing that this subway is 100% political.
 

StevieD

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At the end of the day, it will be a subway extension instead of an LRT line. Guys like Josh Matlow and David Soknacki can say whatever they want. The provincial Grits have already said the LRT is dead and the subway is a go.
 

rbt

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yet no mention of time differences between both methods including transfer time to get downtown.

If people cared about travel time to downtown, they'd vote down both the subway and LRT and put the $1.4B into GO service with 10 minute frequencies from Agincourt to Union.

$1.4B will subsidize run hundreds of thousands of trains GO runs and build large bus stations at Agincourt and Kennedy stations for all TTC bus traffic.
 
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BMO

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If people cared about travel time to downtown, they'd vote down both the subway and LRT and put the $1.4B into GO service with 5 minute frequencies from Agincourt to Union.

$1.4B will subsidize run hundreds of thousands of trains runs and build large bus stations at Agincourt and Kennedy stations for all TTC bus traffic.

my comment was aimed at the fact that transfers incur huge penalties for transit users in models. I'd be interested to know if a mention of a transfer was made during the survey.
 

rbt

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my comment was aimed at the fact that transfers incur huge penalties for transit users in models. I'd be interested to know if a mention of a transfer was made during the survey.

I know. My point is that if you really want to make a big impact from Scarborough to Downtown trips, both subway and LRT are poor ways to spend the provinces money.

The LRT case at Kennedy adds about a couple of minutes for a transfer and both options continue to transfer from Bus to LRT/Subway and subway/subway at Yonge. Frequent GO service + bus terminals at Agincourt/Kennedy would eliminate 2 transfers, not just one, and has a faster run-time to downtown. The Scarborough subway extension is an hugely inferior way of getting people downtown; so arguments for getting people downtown are not going to be in favourable to the subway option.
 
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nfitz

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Frequent GO service + bus terminals at Agincourt/Kennedy would eliminate 2 transfers, not just one, and has a faster run-time to downtown.
A faster run-time to Union Station. If you take the Yonge subway in rush-hour, almost everyone who was on at Yonge, has gotten off before Union. And of those that remain, many continue around the loop to St. Andrew and Osgoode.

If you move the Kennedy->downtown demand to GO, most people coming off the GO from Agincourt will be trying to head north somehow. And it can easily be 5 minutes from the time the train stops until you walk into the subway station, let alone get on a subway train. Last time I clocked it, was 10 minutes from the GO platform to a subway train moving - and that was having just missed a GO train, and deciding to take subway instead. Would have been longer if I'd had to have lined up to get out of the GO train, and then deal with all the congestion on the platform. The schedule time on GO from Kennedy to Union is 22 minutes, compared to 23 minutes from Kennedy to Bloor/Yonge on the subway. Given it takes about 3 minutes to change at Bloor-Yonge rather than closer to 10 minutes at Union, I doubt that GO will ever draw that many people away from the subway, unless they can make it a lot faster.
 

rbt

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A faster run-time to Union Station. If you take the Yonge subway in rush-hour, almost everyone who was on at Yonge, has gotten off before Union. And of those that remain, many continue around the loop to St. Andrew and Osgoode.

If you move the Kennedy->downtown demand to GO, most people coming off the GO from Agincourt will be trying to head north somehow. And it can easily be 5 minutes from the time the train stops until you walk into the subway station, let alone get on a subway train.

Well, we have ~$3B to spend on making the best trip downtown (equal funding to subway option). I've allocated $1B for TTC to subsidize close to 1 million GO train trips over the coming 3 to 4 decades (roughly 10 minute frequencies, assumes $0 revenue for those trips and the $1B earns nominal interest).

I put $500M into Scarborough stations to create bus terminals at Agincourt, lets include Milliken too, and make substantial improvements to Kennedy integration. Perhaps we slice $100M out to put in BRT on a few congested areas to make the feeder buses flow faster since very few residents live at any of the proposed LRT, Subway, or GO stations.

Can we take the $1.5B remaining and improve the transfer at Union Station? That would buy electrification of the line, a few km of tunnel through downtown, and a nice interchange station. Perhaps we could put an interchange at King Station instead of going to Union, though that's not helpful for South Core as a destination (duck underground near Cherry St and run across to Yonge/Bay near Colborne/Melinda or Wellington).


My entire point is that arguing about trips to downtown for the subway option is dubious. $3B can create a far nicer downtown trip for more people in the same starting area. There are perfectly good reasons to build LRT or subway in Scarborough; a primary use of trips to downtown isn't one of them.

I didn't even need to get into the possible side-effects like less load on Yonge line in peak direction/peak period and the possibility York Region might kick in additional funding for that kind of downtown express plan to further improve it.
 
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pesto

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"Scarborough residents prefer LRT to subway: Poll"

Across Toronto, 61 per cent of survey respondents preferred an LRT to a subway in Scarborough.

By: Tess Kalinowski Transportation reporter, Published on Mon Feb 03 2014

The politicians say Scarborough hearts are set on a subway. But the latest online survey suggests that — given the facts — voters across Toronto, including those in the east end, would prefer an LRT.

Leger Research found 61 per cent of respondents preferred an LRT, compared with 39 per cent who supported an extension to the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Even in Scarborough, the majority of decided respondents — 56 per cent — backed the LRT, compared to 44 per cent who wanted a subway.

The survey found 18 per cent were undecided.

Residents have had years to learn about the two transit options that have been floated to replace the aging Scarborough RT, said Leger’s Dave Scholz.

“But it’s very confusing when you just listen to city councillors talk about this topic. If you get past all of that rhetoric and you get down to how much is it going to cost, who’s going to pay for it and who’s going to be serviced by it, then people have a very realistic view of what they want,” he said.

City council has approved a three-stop subway to replace the SRT at a cost of about $2.5 billion to $3 billion. But it had originally agreed to a seven-stop LRT for $1.48 billion, fully funded by the province.

Toronto taxpayers will be on the hook for about $1 billion for the subway — the funding not provided by senior governments.

“This poll says to me that, despite the relentless campaign of misinformation and lies that Scarborough residents have received about rapid transit, the majority of them know the truth and want the service that will provide rapid transit to more residents for less money now,” said Councillor Josh Matlow (Ward 22, St. Paul’s).

He argued last week that the $12.2 million the city plans to collect in subway funds this year should be put in a reserve fund until after the next election.

The lowest LRT support was in North York where respondents were evenly split on the two transit modes, said Sholz. Downtown and East York residents were most supportive of the LRT and Etobicoke respondents were 59 per cent in favour of the LRT.

Leger surveyed 523 Toronto residents on Friday and Saturday from its online panel. Although the data have been weighted according to Statistics Canada data for age and gender, the company does not provide a statistical margin of error for the data.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/03/scarborough_residents_prefer_lrt_to_subway_poll.html
 

Rainforest

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It would be nice to know the exact question they asked.

If the public opinion, even within Scarborough, is genuinely in favor of LRT, that is one thing. But a huge swing in public opinion from just a year ago seems strange, and makes me think that the question they asked has changed materially.
 

nfitz

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It would be nice to know the exact question they asked.

If the public opinion, even within Scarborough, is genuinely in favor of LRT, that is one thing. But a huge swing in public opinion from just a year ago seems strange, and makes me think that the question they asked has changed materially.
Could simply be who one asked.

I'm sure if you stood at Scarborough Centre and asked the question, you'd get a different response than if you stood at Centennial, near Sheppard/Markham, or Kennedy/Lawrence for example.
 

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