[T3G]

But does that mean we should just stop trying? The TTC has entirely stopped fare enforcement, presumably in agreement with your thinking above, it’s impossible, so don’t bother. I feel like such a dupe now having paid my fare every time.

We have three options.

1) Make everyone pay the fare
2) Make only some people pay the fare
2) Make no one pay the fare

We aspire to the first, while hoping for a high proportion on the second and ultimately accept the third.

I don't disagree with enforcement of the fare, I just think we should temper our expectations.

As nfitz notes, too, it's not the TTC that gets the revenue from the fines, anyway. It's collected by the city. It's hard to imagine there's a lot of appetite within the organization, and for good reason, to collect fines from someone that they don't see a penny of.

 

[turbanplanner]

I don't disagree with enforcement of the fare, I just think we should temper our expectations.

As nfitz notes, too, it's not the TTC that gets the revenue from the fines, anyway. It's collected by the city. It's hard to imagine there's a lot of appetite within the organization, and for good reason, to collect fines from someone that they don't see a penny of.

Most people who cause trouble (assaults, vandals) are fare evaders. Cracking down means people like that are less likely to get on.

 

[SubHuman]

...There seems to be a view here, that no one is paying fares. And yet, most people I see boarding the streetcar are tapping...

Most people do still pay. I recall watching on one TTC bus trip just before the start of the pandemic and estimating about one out of every seven people weren't paying or getting the red light with rejection sound. I'm not on a streetcar very often, mostly buses and the subway, and as I said I don't remember the last time I saw a fare inspector (though I do see them on GO trains and VIVA), and over the last few years the TTC bus drivers seem to have stopped paying any attention regarding fares. It's become more common to see people get on and just walk right past the driver without paying -- probably a lot of the same people who were previously pretending to pay by swiping a Presto card with no money left. These are people who certainly don't appear to be homeless or indigent to me. Yesterday I was on a bus that was mostly empty as it left the station, and at the first stop three people got on together. After taking a few steps into the bus, one of the guys stopped as if he suddenly recalled he's supposed to pay, and he did. This caused the woman he was with to fumble around pretending to look through her purse for a few seconds and then do nothing, while the other guy simply did nothing with no pretense.

 

[rbt]

Most people who cause trouble (assaults, vandals) are fare evaders. Cracking down means people like that are less likely to get on.

While that feels like it's correct (perhaps revealing a personal bias), do we have any evidence of it? Does TTC (or police) check for valid fare of those arrested while on TTC property?

 

[Admiral Beez]

While that feels like it's correct (perhaps revealing a personal bias), do we have any evidence of it? Does TTC (or police) check for valid fare of those arrested while on TTC property?

Well, if you were intent on setting a passenger on fire, pushing a passenger onto the subway tracks or stabbing or hitting another passenger with a knife or hammer.... all whilst muttering about your personal demons, would you really be so concerned about paying your fare?

 

[turbanplanner]

While that feels like it's correct (perhaps revealing a personal bias), do we have any evidence of it? Does TTC (or police) check for valid fare of those arrested while on TTC property?

Several arrests were made when the police were acting as extra security in the stations, the fare inspectors take down your name and info and the police were able to compare that to outstanding arrest warrants.

 

[rbt]

Well, if you were intent on setting a passenger on fire, pushing a passenger onto the subway tracks or stabbing or hitting another passenger with a knife or hammer.... all whilst muttering about your personal demons, would you really be so concerned about paying your fare?

That's what makes it an interesting question to have answered. You're saying they go specifically to a TTC platform to cause harm to a random 3rd party, and so don't care about the fare: it's premeditated.

Another option is they're going about their day, need to take the TTC, pay their fare, then the idea occurs spontaneously: intentional but not planned. Mental illness issues will typically lean toward spontaneous. That "'evil" inner voice suddenly gets to drive the body for a minute.

 

[rbt]

Several arrests were made when the police were acting as extra security in the stations, the fare inspectors take down your name and info and the police were able to compare that to outstanding arrest warrants.

True. Though these people were not arrested for vandalizing or causing harm while on TTC property. Lots and lots of things, including things which aren't illegal, do a search for outstanding warrants.

 

[turbanplanner]

True. Though these people were not arrested for vandalizing or causing harm while on TTC property. Lots and lots of things, including things which aren't illegal, do a search for outstanding warrants.

It's not like they just stand around and wait to get arrested.

 

[DSC]

While I agree with you that even if the poles were there its not as if they could run tomorrow, the TTC just seems to keep starting overhead conversions and not finishing them. There's the bustitution of the 503 to allow work on Kingston, but for months it hasn't looked like anything started. Despite a years long diversion on King Street west of Dufferin during which some work could have taken place, progress has been anemic, and only in the past few weeks has work appeared to make serious progress. The work to string up overhead to enable operations at Sunnyside Loop had been long delayed until the sewer collapse forced immediate action, thankfully.

This pattern is very frustrating, and appears as if buying a few electric buses has caused the TTC to forget the majority of their electric fleet isn't battery powered and requires some damn wires. Luckily it seems as if someone notices before they can publish a schedule.

Just saw several Black & McDonald guys on Wellington putting up new (black) TTC poles on south side of Wellington Street from Yonge to Bay. Just as promised! (Apart from the fact they are black, these are regular poles so I assume will have support wires running across the street to support the overhead for the streetcars and NOT the cantilevered ones they have put up from Yonge to Church.)

 

[W. K. Lis]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1631025471604285450

See also the Jane LRT RapidTO link.

 

[DSC]

A thoughtful piece (as usual) from Ed Keenan in the Star on transit fare enforcement. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...rse-than-drivers-who-flout-parking-rules.html

 

[Steve X]

One thing is illegal parking is harder to get away as the type of vehicle and license plate is fully exposed for anymore to record. Vehicle surveillance is enough to proof violations if they ever want to go that route. They can even mail tickets in the future.

Fare evasion is harder to catch as once someone slips away. They need to be caught on the spot and require a human interaction. People can simply run away causing enforcement headaches.

 

[W. K. Lis]

One thing is illegal parking is harder to get away as the type of vehicle and license plate is fully exposed for anymore to record. Vehicle surveillance is enough to proof violations if they ever want to go that route. They can even mail tickets in the future.

Fare evasion is harder to catch as once someone slips away. They need to be caught on the spot and require a human interaction. People can simply run away causing enforcement headaches.

The fare inspectors should be able to photograph an offender to give a warning for the first time. If on a second offence, they get a "hit" with a photo, they are given a "small" fine. On subsequent offences, the "fines" increase on each "hit". When the offender "hits a threshold", the police should be called. We could "erare" the "hits" after a passage of time, like a couple of years. (Twins, triplets, up to nonuplets, or doppelgangers, may need additional identification.)

If customs (at airports and land crossings) uses facial biometrics, so should the public transit fare inspectors.

 

[PL1]

The fare inspectors should be able to photograph an offender to give a warning for the first time. If on a second offence, they get a "hit" with a photo, they are given a "small" fine. On subsequent offences, the "fines" increase on each "hit". When the offender "hits a threshold", the police should be called. We could "erare" the "hits" after a passage of time, like a couple of years. (Twins, triplets, up to nonuplets, or doppelgangers, may need additional identification.)

If customs (at airports and land crossings) uses facial biometrics, so should the public transit fare inspectors.

Hard disagree here.