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TLDR: The cost for fixing the SRT is either fixing the curves (way less than the cost of rebuilding the line for trams), or getting bespoke trains (way less than the cost of rebuilding the line for trams).
No, new yard and maintenance facilities would have been needed, no so with an LRT conversion. and the main problem with the capacity limit of the SRT was the single track at Kennedy, that needed to be replaced either way with a new platform.
 
While you're at it, how about you don't destroy the SRT, and just upgrade it with modern signaling and rolling stock, and maybe cover it up with winter shelters? That would be even better than converting it to LRT.
How do you plan on doing this when only Mark I cars will fit the tunnel???? Then there is the accessibility issue.

If you read SRT wikipedia, you will see what against your idea.

Thompson is really flip flopping in the name of votes since he and Glen approved the LRT plan as a TTC commissioner.

It will only take 3.5 years to replace the current SRT with LRT and that includes rebuilding the tunnel and Kennedy Station. Its possible to have the extension to Malvern up and running as well. The Malvern could open in phases.
 
No, new yard and maintenance facilities would have been needed, no so with an LRT conversion. and the main problem with the capacity limit of the SRT was the single track at Kennedy, that needed to be replaced either way with a new platform.
Yes a new yard will have to be built
 
It doesn't really matter what you or I believe - plenty of polls showed strong support for the LRT.



How is it worse than the RT in nearly every way?
It's not really much worse than the rt in every way but it is absolutely no better than the rt, for l to more money than a full refurbishment and extension. The lrt provides no benefits over a completely refurbished and extended rt, and comes in at a much higher cost. If there was no rt before, the lrt would be a pretty good plan, but replacing the rt with it is not (in my opinion anyways)
 
Ah yes, the cost of fixing one tunnel (which goes under tracks and basically nothing else) and a small set of bespoke railcars is more than heavy construction on 6 stations, total signaling and electrification change out, a new or rebuilt maintenance facility, AND a new fleet of trains. . .

Lots of systems have non-standard trains and most rail companies will happily build you trains for them, of course they are more expensive but everything else is not equal. Worst case scenario, we could do what Denver does, and built brand new SRT cars with the exact same design as the original ones. Or more smartly, use the profile of the old trains, but add modern design features and touches . . . and then you wouldn't even need to rebuild anything.

TLDR: The cost for fixing the SRT is either fixing the curves (way less than the cost of rebuilding the line for trams), or getting bespoke trains (way less than the cost of rebuilding the line for trams).

Even if you redesigned the curves to allow for Mark 2s to run on the tracks, and made the necessary changes to allow for Mark 2s to run, it would still be cheaper than redesigning the entire line modify the entire lines to support low floor LRVs like what was proposed in Transit City. With that plan you'd have to replace every single station with a low floor station which would require replacing escalators, elevators, or completely modifying the track. Like many things in Transit City, it was a plan that was extremely poorly thought out and was more of a product of a politician pushing his own ideals rather than studies showing if its possible or make financial sense.

Indeed, rebuilding the SRT in some form (either custom-build vehicles or upgrading the tracks / stations / tunnels for Mk-2 or Mk-3) without extending it further east from McCowan should have been cheaper than replacing with LRT. But then you retain transfers at both ends, from SRT to subway at Kennedy and from buses to SRT at Scarborough Centre.

If we wanted to both replace and extend the line, then apparently LRT is not more expensive than the Mk-x. TTC did a study around 2008 comparing the costs of extending the line to Malvern using the newer Marks vs using LRT, and the cost came about equal (actually, LRT was a bit cheaper). I couldn't find that study today; will try again and post it if successful.

Anyway, with the subway funding apparently committed by the province, and the expected contract signing this spring .. the difference between SRT and SLRT turns into merely a matter of academic debate. If the subway somehow fails to materialize, then the other-options debate will resurface. But if the subway moves forward, then why not just take advantage of the province's rare transit spending spree.
 
How do you plan on doing this when only Mark I cars will fit the tunnel???? Then there is the accessibility issue.

If you read SRT wikipedia, you will see what against your idea.

Thompson is really flip flopping in the name of votes since he and Glen approved the LRT plan as a TTC commissioner.

It will only take 3.5 years to replace the current SRT with LRT and that includes rebuilding the tunnel and Kennedy Station. Its possible to have the extension to Malvern up and running as well. The Malvern could open in phases.
Considering how short the tunnel is, I can't imagine it will be too difficult to either change the tunnel or find an alternate solution. One of the major advantages to ICTS is its ability to climb steeper than usual slopes so having the rail climb after Ellesmere to go over the Stouffville corridor is definitely a possibility, and so is modifying the curve at Kennedy. Sure this is a lot of money, but doing all of that, as well as building new structures such as a snow shelter along the length of the track should still be cheaper than converting it to LRT.
It doesn't really matter what you or I believe - plenty of polls showed strong support for the LRT.
Polls are a direction to look at but aren't absolute and should be taken with a grain of salt. Polls should always be questioned for any biases that could've been had by those conducting it or margins of error based off who was asked. Do you know what's absolute? The ballot box, and the ballot box shows that Scarborough has consistently voted for pro subway politicians for the past decade.
How is it worse than the RT in nearly every way?
Lower capacity, lower acceleration, more prone to creep since if in the future a politician wanted to save money on an extension, all he would have to do is take a cheap option to run it in the median of the roadway and destroy the reliability of the service (See LA for how this can seriously hurt a line), and finally the conversion would cost more money for no real benefit. With the subway option, even if its not perfect, at least you can point out where the subway improves on the original RT, stuff like running in a better corridor, removing a linear transfer, and removing redundant stations, and I guess you can throw in better reliability in Toronto's cold climate. The LRT doesn't solve any of these issues, with maybe the sole exception of winter reliability, but even then cities like Moscow show that the only thing you need to make systems more winter resistant is just to cover it up with a snow shelter, and installing that alongside an SRT refurbishment would still cost less than the LRT plan.
Indeed, rebuilding the SRT in some form (either custom-build vehicles or upgrading the tracks / stations / tunnels for Mk-2 or Mk-3) without extending it further east from McCowan should have been cheaper than replacing with LRT. But then you retain transfers at both ends, from SRT to subway at Kennedy and from buses to SRT at Scarborough Centre.

If we wanted to both replace and extend the line, then apparently LRT is not more expensive than the Mk-x. TTC did a study around 2008 comparing the costs of extending the line to Malvern using the newer Marks vs using LRT, and the cost came about equal (actually, LRT was a bit cheaper). I couldn't find that study today; will try again and post it if successful.

Anyway, with the subway funding apparently committed by the province, and the expected contract signing this spring .. the difference between SRT and SLRT becomes no more than a matter of academic debate. If the subway somehow fails to materialize, then the other-options debate will resurface. But if the subway moves forward, then why not just take advantage of the province's rare transit spending spree.
IFF what you're saying is true then maybe there is an argument for LRT? But as I wrote above, even in the most ideal conditions for LRT where the price does edge in its favour I think an SRT refurbishment would still offer a better value, especially if instead of building the Eglinton Crosstown as an LRT, it was an extension of the SRT (This would've been the greatest of all plans we had in this city as it would've provided a more reliable service on Eglinton and the issue of the linear transfer is less present), but I think SSE is a good 2nd option.
 
The ballot box, and the ballot box shows that Scarborough has consistently voted for pro subway politicians for the past decade
I don't get this reasoning, people vote largely by name recognition or party affiliation, the LRT supporters didn't all move to the few ridings where candidates were promising LRT.
 
I don't get this reasoning, people vote largely by name recognition or party affiliation, the LRT supporters didn't all move to the few ridings where candidates were promising LRT.

Then there would be equal numbers of elected politicians who are pro subway and pro LRT. Or they wouldn't even mention either subway or LRT during their election campaign. Nobody runs on a promise to build a new water main, or to replace some aging electric cables, even though those are necessary routine tasks.

The fact that nearly everyone elected for an office in Scarborough spoke in favor of the subway, indicates that the voters prefer the subway. Politicians recognize that, and tailor their stance accordingly.

Maybe some of them could get elected regardless, based on the name recognition alone. But they don't want to take that risk.
 
Then there would be equal numbers of elected politicians who are pro subway and pro LRT. Or they wouldn't even mention either subway or LRT during their election campaign. Nobody runs on a promise to build a new water main, or to replace some aging electric cables, even though those are necessary routine tasks.

The fact that nearly everyone elected for an office in Scarborough spoke in favor of the subway, indicates that the voters prefer the subway. Politicians recognize that, and tailor their stance accordingly.

Maybe some of them could get elected regardless, based on the name recognition alone. But they don't want to take that risk.
But then the candidates promising LRT should not have been elected at all, if support is that widespread. Those promising subways were just going along with the populist rhetoric stirred up by Ford any tryiing to out do each other with campaign promises, and many of them had previously been fine with LRT.
 
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But then the candidates promising LRT should not have been elected at all, if support is that widespread. Those promising subways were just going along with the populist rhetoric stirred up by Ford any tryiing to out do each other with campaign promises, and many of them had previously been fine with LRT.

Perhaps the populist rhetoric is the cause of the subway's popularity, that doesn't negate the fact that the public favors the subway.
 
Not everyone votes solely based on transit promises. What transit people would prefer cannot be determined by what politicians they elected into office. Just because people voted ford does not necessarily mean they want subways and are against lrt, and the same is true the other way around. Maybe that's how few people here vote but these forums are not representative of the cities population.
 
Perhaps the populist rhetoric is the cause of the subway's popularity, that doesn't negate the fact that the public favors the subway.
That's not a fact, some surveys had showed otherwise, and I live in Scarborough, I hear many comments about how ridiculous this all is. And big decisions like this should take more into consideration than people thinking subways are awesome.
 
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At one time there used to be referendums made at elections. Today, they are few and usually ignored by the politicians.

From link.

Two historical subway referendums have been held in Toronto. A century ago, when the first subway proposals started appearing, a 1911 municipal referendum asked voters:

Are you in favour of the City of Toronto applying to the legislature for power to construct and operate a municipal system of subway and surface street railway, subject to the approval of qualified ratepayers?

The public voted in favour, however the referendum was non-binding and the candidate who won the mayoralty (George Reginald Geary) opposed subway development due to the expense, resulting in the project being scrapped.

Fast-forward to 1946, when postwar Toronto was looking for infrastructure projects to put people to work. A referendum during the municipal election that year asked:

Are you in favour of the Toronto Transportation Commission proceeding with the proposed rapid transit system provided the Dominion government assumes one-fifth of the cost and provided that the cost to the ratepayers is limited to such amounts as the City Council may agree are necessary for the replacement and improvement of city services?

This time around, not only did Torontonians vote a whopping majority for the proposal, the project went ahead too. Eight years later, Canada’s first subway was opened.
More recently, a 1997 referendum was held in all six pre-amalgamation municipalities to vote on the “megacity” plan. The vote produced a majority against amalgamation, but the Harris government pushed forward regardless. This raises the question of the effectiveness of non-binding referendums, if governments maintain the ability to ignore the results.
 

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