world's upside down...

York wants subway=we sign them a check with no strings attached without even having consider LRT in the first place

Toronto wants subway=What??? LRT's are too good good for you now????:confused:
 

A monthly pass for those that travel just in Montreal is $75.50. If you travel to either Laval or Longueuil metro stations as well, it's $117. They seem to have changed the non-pass rules yet again (they seem to change them more frequently than I use the Metro in Montreal these days) ... but as far as I can tell, a 10-ride ticket in Montreal is $2.40 and you can't use these for Laval and Longueuil. The only fare that seems the same is if you pay the single fare price of $3 ....

Please tell me why I'm wrong ... or are you just looking at single fares, which is not what most people use.

You only to have to pay more only if you travel from both Laval and Longueuil.
I don't see anything saying that the fare from Laval to Longueuil is any more than from Laval to Montreal.

STM is way better managed than the TTC
It certainly has improved since the 1990s, when there was a big management change. But if you grew up with it, you'd know that at one point it made the TTC look good.
 
A monthly pass for those that travel just in Montreal is $75.50. If you travel to either Laval or Longueuil metro stations as well, it's $117. They seem to have changed the non-pass rules yet again (they seem to change them more frequently than I use the Metro in Montreal these days) ... but as far as I can tell, a 10-ride ticket in Montreal is $2.40 and you can't use these for Laval and Longueuil. The only fare that seems the same is if you pay the single fare price of $3 ....

Please tell me why I'm wrong ... or are you just looking at single fares, which is not what most people use.

my bad, only applies to the monthly pass but the city asked more money from the province in exchange and they go it
http://www.stm.info/info/comm-10/co100615.htm

It certainly has improved since the 1990s, when there was a big management change. But if you grew up with it, you'd know that at one point it made the TTC look good.
What matters is that they improved which won't happen as long as Webster will stay in charge
 
What matters is that they improved which won't happen as long as Webster will stay in charge
An odd comment given how much positive change I've seen since I moved back to Toronto in 2004. The cleaner washroom program, nextbus information, better communication, new trains, new streetcars, major track rebuilds in my neighbourhood have been a joy to watch ... it's so well organized (at least when you can keep Toronto Hydro away!). Even the operators don't seem as nasty as often ...

I've never understood what this anti-Webster issue is. And even how much difference he makes these days ... wouldn't Byford by more influential on many of these issues these days?
 
world's upside down...

York wants subway=we sign them a check with no strings attached without even having consider LRT in the first place

Toronto wants subway=What??? LRT's are too good good for you now????:confused:

First, your description of the funding and planning process for the Spadina and Yonge subways is....flawed.

There's not "no strings attached." Yes, obviously TTC is paying the operating costs of the whole 2 KM they're building in Vaughan but they're also getting all the fares and parking revenue. The same would happen on the Yonge extension.

At the same time, the Yonge extension would save them running buses between Finch and Steeles (gas prices are going DOWN, right?) and potentially allow them to close the bus terminal there and maybe even develop it. They would also likely be able to score air rights for the over-the-station developments at Steeles etc. so, in short, there are several pro-TTC strings attached. (That's not counting the environmental and traffic benefits of getting literally thousands of buses and cars a day off that stretch of road.)

Either way, you're really just making the case (as if last week's circus was insufficient) as to why Metrolinx should take over the subway (and LRT). Stopping the subway 2km short of a designated growth mode is a fundamental planning error. It will ensure the growth node never develops. If you want to do that, perpetuating sprawl, to save a few pennies, that's fair POV but it's not the one I hold.

I undersand the TTC is Toronto's subway but you can't do regional planning if everyone is protecting their little fiefdom. I suspect the Toronto-pays-for-the-TTC defensiveness will go out the window next year when Metrolinx comes up with a regional transit funding plan.
 
I'm sure it isn't your own biases and fetishes that prompt your subways to MCC/VCC/STC positions (electric GO isn't good enough!) because they sure aren't supported by any numbers.

When did I ever say GO wasn't good enough? Assuming you're talking about the Milton diversion through MCC, I have on infinite occasions stated that I support BOTH. Both MUST be done. At MCC you should be able to board a subway bound for Yonge-Bloor (and all the points between) or an express train to Union (and all the GO stations between).

Let's not kid ourselves, neither option is cheap. A Milton diversion to MCC won't be easy. And getting CP on board will be very, very difficult. It would be much easier to build a subway along Dundas than trying to reroute Milton through a populated area--much of it would have to be underground. Until we have anything other than our bilevels I think that'll be impossible.


On the topic of the Mississauga hate, let's not pretend it doesn't permeate this board. Only the most offensive anti-Mississauga posts are censured, if at all.
 
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You're compaining that the Mods don't censor people for saying things that are critical of Mississuaga? That "Mississauga hate" permeates the forum? Seriously?

We don't censor people for being critical of any municipality! That's not against the rules, no matter the interpretation!
 
] The cleaner washroom program

I used the washroom at Bloor Station tonight for the first time in years. I was dreading it given my last encounter with that place featuring backed up toilets, feces on the floor and paper towels strewn everywhere. Tonight, it was just as clean as the bathroom in the office tower I work in.
 
I used the washroom at Bloor Station tonight for the first time in years. I was dreading it given my last encounter with that place featuring backed up toilets, feces on the floor and paper towels strewn everywhere. Tonight, it was just as clean as the bathroom in the office tower I work in.
That's great to hear! I don't even think that one has been renovated yet! Every time I pass through Bloor-Yonge with my toddler I ask her if she needs to use the bathroom - always fearing that one day she might say yes.
 
You're compaining that the Mods don't censor people for saying things that are critical of Mississuaga? That "Mississauga hate" permeates the forum? Seriously?

We don't censor people for being critical of any municipality! That's not against the rules, no matter the interpretation!

I'm not talking about being "critical" of Mississauga--although people do take that to extreme levels on here. I often get tired of the anti-Mississauga vitriol on this forum. You might not notice it if you're not from Mississauga. But I do.
 
First, your description of the funding and planning process for the Spadina and Yonge subways is....flawed.

Ok, let's here it

There's not "no strings attached." Yes, obviously TTC is paying the operating costs of the whole 2 KM they're building in Vaughan but they're also getting all the fares and parking revenue. The same would happen on the Yonge extension.

Montreal is getting all the fares in Laval and Longueuil but they succeeded at not only making Laval and Longueuil for their share of the operating costs but the outer suburbs cities as well (ALL 89 of them)

Why couldn't the City of Toronto and the TTC negociate the same? There's no excuse to put that operating cost on Torontonians while York region is enjoying the advantage of a subway in their region in exchange for a "1 time check"

At the same time, the Yonge extension would save them running buses between Finch and Steeles (gas prices are going DOWN, right?) and potentially allow them to close the bus terminal there and maybe even develop it.

I agree with the subway going to Steeles. Beyond Steeles not at all. If LRT is SOOO good for growth, why can't YRT build an LRT on Jane and Yonge instead of eating Subway $$$ that could have started the DRL or bury Eglinton?


They would also likely be able to score air rights for the over-the-station developments at Steeles etc. so, in short, there are several pro-TTC strings attached. (That's not counting the environmental and traffic benefits of getting literally thousands of buses and cars a day off that stretch of road.)

By stopping the subway at Steeles they can do all of the above. There's nothing stopping YRT to lobby for an LRT or Metro if they feel they need it and pay for their own operating costs

Either way, you're really just making the case (as if last week's circus was insufficient) as to why Metrolinx should take over the subway (and LRT).

With the provincial finances, wont happen anytime soon


Stopping the subway 2km short of a designated growth mode is a fundamental planning error. It will ensure the growth node never develops. If you want to do that, perpetuating sprawl, to save a few pennies, that's fair POV but it's not the one I hold.

It's mot Toronto's job to help York grow more prosperous. When I vote for my mayor and Councillor, I expect them to work for Toronto, not for York Mississauga or Durham. I can tell you right now in case you didn't know, York doesn't give a damn that the Yonge Line is overcrowded, that we don't have a DRL and that we don't have adequate rapid transit in the north.

Like I said, there's nothing stopping York into building their own Metro lines or LRT and have their taxpayers paying to operate it. The Spadina line north of Steeles is a freakin joke and that money could have linked SHeppard-Yonge to Downsview instead

I undersand the TTC is Toronto's subway but you can't do regional planning if everyone is protecting their little fiefdom. I suspect the Toronto-pays-for-the-TTC defensiveness will go out the window next year when Metrolinx comes up with a regional transit funding plan.

Until Metrolinx does that, it's not Toronto's jobs to operate subways beyond it's borders especially when we seriously and shamefully lack subways within our own borders.

I just don't get something here. People are so quick to find facts and reports to why Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke should only have LRT and no subway (let alone the idiots saying that only those parts of the city should pay for a subway)....Then people will defend in a very incomprehensible way why we "Torontonians" should gladly pay with a smile on our faces the operating costs for running subways for York.

Sheppard's ridership will be higher than the York part of the Spadina line... I guess for someone who didn't grew up in Toronto, I'll never get Downtown Toronto willing to help York over Scarborough and North York....
 
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Montreal is getting all the fares in Laval and Longueuil but they succeeded at not only making Laval and Longueuil for their share of the operating costs but the outer suburbs cities as well (ALL 89 of them)
Why couldn't the City of Toronto and the TTC negociate the same? There's no excuse to put that operating cost on Torontonians while York region is enjoying the advantage of a subway in their region in exchange for a "1 time check"

I don't know enough about Quebec's transit funding overall. I will say that I expect, within five years, there will be some sort of GTA-wide funding mechanism (be it road pricing, a gas tax or whatever) that will render your question moot.

I understand the basic principle - I fund a transit system with my taxes, so why should it go into YOUR municipality - but that's what I believe is as obsolete as the line on the map.

I agree with the subway going to Steeles. Beyond Steeles not at all. If LRT is SOOO good for growth, why can't YRT build an LRT on Jane and Yonge instead of eating Subway $$$ that could have started the DRL or bury Eglinton?

So, you think it makes sense to do two different transit systems instead of one integrated one?
Why not save even more money by running the subway up to Cummer/Drewry, running BRT to Steeles and then LRT up to Hwy 7?
Or maybe people could take moving escalators part of the way?

An INTEGRATED REGIONAL system is what the GTA needs. I understand there's a municipal border at Steeles but that's been meaningless for years in every respect, except for (to an extent) tax-funding. As I said, that will soon be meaningless too. That's why Metrolinx exists. Integration is one of the basic principles of The Big Move, such as it is. Doing less - asking York Region residents and workers to change from BRT to LRT to Subway in the course of 5km is an EXCELLENT way to ensure no one ever takes transit. (By the way, people travel BOTH ways on transit these days, not just from the suburbs to downtown.)

It's mot Toronto's job to help York grow more prosperous. When I vote for my mayor and Councillor, I expect them to work for Toronto, not for York Mississauga or Durham.

If that's your attitude, you should return the $8.4B now being debated and take Toronto out of organizations like the GTA Marketing Alliance.

After all, Toronto's transit problems and prosperity shouldn't be solved by MY tax dollars, much less some guy in Cornwall or Listowel or Thunder Bay, right?

OR we could have a tax system that takes all the money from all over and distributes it where needed, recognizing that the GTA economy needs to be efficient or it, and the whole province, wil be dragged down? One or the other.

It's easy to blame York for being assertive on developing a coherent transit plan (the nerve!) but it's TORONTO's decision not to prioritize the DRL.

There's no mystery to the whole LRT/subway debate.
It's most sensible to extend a subway 5 km to a huge population node under an overcrowded road than it is to build a huge, new line (especially, more to the point) at the expense of several smaller lines that could add up to more good.

It's your thinking that a Yonge extension is "helping York" and no one else that's the obstacle, with all due respect. People from York work in Toronto, and vice versa. When you build a sensible network you help EVERYBODY. Yes, it would be far preferable there was suddenly $50B just sitting there so we could do the Yonge line and the Eglinton subway and the DRL all at once but that's not reality.
 
I don't know enough about Quebec's transit funding overall. I will say that I expect, within five years, there will be some sort of GTA-wide funding mechanism (be it road pricing, a gas tax or whatever) that will render your question moot.

I understand the basic principle - I fund a transit system with my taxes, so why should it go into YOUR municipality - but that's what I believe is as obsolete as the line on the map.

Agreed about having a regional view on transit but until you do, making York pay for their share of operating cost for the subway is fair just like Montreal did to Longueuil in 1967 for the yellow line


So, you think it makes sense to do two different transit systems instead of one integrated one?

of course not. I was for the extension of the orange line to Laval. It made total sense but Montreal made sure they paid their share which funny enough the mayor was very resistant to do at first although he was more than happy to have Montreal operate the subway in his city

Why not save even more money by running the subway up to Cummer/Drewry, running BRT to Steeles and then LRT up to Hwy 7?
Or maybe people could take moving escalators part of the way?

South of Steeles is Toronto. Torontonians pay taxes to anything that's going on South of Steeles. Why would they pay to give service to York.

Let me rephrase that for you...
York taxpayer not paying their share to operate the subway=Torontonian not happy
York taxpayer paying their share to operate the subway=Torontonian happy

An INTEGRATED REGIONAL system is what the GTA needs. I understand there's a municipal border at Steeles but that's been meaningless for years in every respect, except for (to an extent) tax-funding. As I said, that will soon be meaningless too. That's why Metrolinx exists. Integration is one of the basic principles of The Big Move, such as it is.

Agreed but until Metrolinx does that, York not paying for their share makes no sense

Doing less - asking York Region residents and workers to change from BRT to LRT to Subway in the course of 5km is an EXCELLENT way to ensure no one ever takes transit. (By the way, people travel BOTH ways on transit these days, not just from the suburbs to downtown.)

and yet that's what you expect people on Sheppard and Eglinton to do but noooo, not York region


If that's your attitude, you should return the $8.4B now being debated and take Toronto out of organizations like the GTA Marketing Alliance.

I'd love to get the exact % of the 8.4B that came from Toronto?
What about the % of tax dollars funding the GO Trains comes from Toronto

After all, Toronto's transit problems and prosperity shouldn't be solved by MY tax dollars, much less some guy in Cornwall or Listowel or Thunder Bay, right?

Most of the tax $ comes from Toronto but I'm still willing to help you by operating the subway for you, just pay for your share.

OR we could have a tax system that takes all the money from all over and distributes it where needed, recognizing that the GTA economy needs to be efficient or it, and the whole province, wil be dragged down? One or the other.

Why the ranting, why is it so hard to say : It's fair that suburbs that gets the subway pays their share of the operating costs? Not asking you to say what Montreal did should be implemented here (although it should)

It's easy to blame York for being assertive on developing a coherent transit plan (the nerve!) but it's TORONTO's decision not to prioritize the DRL.

So busy making your point that you miss the part where I said that the council back then was incompetent to have let the province build the Spadina line into York without having York paying for their share.

There's no mystery to the whole LRT/subway debate.
It's most sensible to extend a subway 5 km to a huge population node under an overcrowded road than it is to build a huge, new line (especially, more to the point) at the expense of several smaller lines that could add up to more good.

Yet the ridership of the Spadina line in York will be less than Sheppard as of today. Yet there's more people (3X) in Scarborough than both Thornhill and Richmond Hill combine but you're still right on one thing, Toronto council drop the ball on that one.

It's your thinking that a Yonge extension is "helping York" and no one else that's the obstacle, with all due respect. People from York work in Toronto, and vice versa. When you build a sensible network you help EVERYBODY. Yes, it would be far preferable there was suddenly $50B just sitting there so we could do the Yonge line and the Eglinton subway and the DRL all at once but that's not reality.

Why not help Toronto pay to operate the subway then. This year we had to cut service. You want help but you don't want to help pay for it except that one time check but to be fair, if the city is foolish enough to accept that, you'd be crazy to refuse.

Just saying...
 
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They live in York but again want a subway to follow them to bring them to work. This way they save on GO which is distance based and this is what the TTC needs to do. people should not expect a subway to follow them to who knows where so that it will increase their property values and save money since its a flat fare for the TTC. TTC stands for TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION.
 
They live in York but again want a subway to follow them to bring them to work. This way they save on GO which is distance based and this is what the TTC needs to do. people should not expect a subway to follow them to who knows where so that it will increase their property values and save money since its a flat fare for the TTC. TTC stands for TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION.

Even York Region is in the Greater Toronto Area.
 

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