[gweed123]

This whole situation could either work out really well, or it could end really badly. In reality, even at full steam ahead, the DRL is at least 3 years away from having a completed EA (and that's if the process goes very very smoothly). How long is York Region willing to wait? It could very well be 5 years before the DRL is at the same stage that the Yonge extension is now. That timeline of course is assuming that the current bickering at City Hall either ends or somehow doesn't include the DRL, which given the downtown vs suburbs mentality dominating politics now, isn't very likely to happen. So even if the DRL studies proceed at lightning speed, and the political climate is right, we're at least 5 years away from tendering.

The question then falls to York Region and Metrolinx: Do we delay the Yonge extension to wait for the DRL, or do we proceed with them both on their own timelines and cope with overcrowding for a while? The Yonge extension, as far as subway construction goes, is significantly less complicated, just by the very nature of what type of surroundings it's being tunnelled through. Even if both projects were to break ground on the same day, the Yonge extension would likely still be open first.

The reality is that even if Metrolinx does step in and take full control of the DRL project, the timelines just don't sync up, unless York Region is basically put into a holding pattern for half a decade or more. Politically, that's a very risky move.

I think the best course of action is the following:

1) Continue with the DRL studies.
2) Secure funding for the Yonge extension.
3) Start construction of the Yonge extension.
4) If all goes well, the construction of the Yonge extension should be wrapping up just as the DRL is going for funding.
5) Let the absolute crapshoot that occurs on the Yonge line when the extension opens serve as the political ammo to secure financing for the DRL.
6) Begin construction on the DRL.

Definitely not the best route from a city-building/living perspective, but from a political perspective it may be just about the only way to get both of these projects built, without severely pissing anyone off in the process.

 

[GenerationW]

Pardon my pessimism, but I think it will go like this:

2) York Region will secure Provincial and Federal funding for Yonge, likely soon after the Spadina extension opens
3) Construction will start on Yonge, overcoming any objections by Toronto
4) Yonge will be completed with Council still not able to secure funding for the DRL, whether from upper levels of government, or through other means
5) The Yonge extension combined with the Eglinton LRT will eventually overload Yonge
6) Mass chaos
7) Realization that spending nothing out of $8 billion in the last decade on the DRL was a disaster of biblical proportions

And I really hope I'm wrong.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Are you sure it would take so long for the DRL to do it's EA? The Yonge extension was the first project done under the province's new process for transit and I don't think it was much more than a year, end to end.

That said, this problem is a complex one at this point. The fact is that the extension was one of Metrolinx's Top 15 projects and the DRL was on their long-term list. I think both should have been Top 15 but at this point I guess the city can lobby to get DRL moved up. Even if Stephen Harper announced a new national transit plan tomorrow, including $20B for the GTA, I don't think it makes sense to wait on Yonge to do the DRL. I understand the concerns about capacity etc. but we have to just get building and they are very far down the road with the detailed work, not the least of which is the complete EA. I think they should find money (that's the tricky part!) start building Yonge and roll directly into the DRL.

My prediction is less optimistic. I expect Metrolinx will announce its investment strategy in about six months and there will be either another minority Lib or PC government, neither of whom will want to touch "new taxes" with a 10-foot pole. In 2014, once they have a new mayor, Toronto can talk about doing that stuff on their own, and then funding the DRL or whatever they want. Either way, Metrolinx's role as a regional transit planning authority will be totally undermined by then and the Big Move will be worthless. Then, maybe, projects like the Yonge subway will continue to get piecemeal funding as they have in the past.

Hopefully it won't go down that way. Bringing the Yonge subway to Steeles is pointless. I know that, politically, Torontonians don't want to hear that but if that subway doesn't go up to Hwy. 7, York can't develop the RHC/Langstaff area. And if that happens, Places to Grow will be as worthless as Metrolinx and the entire regional planning regime the province put in place will blow up by 2015 and we'll keep sprawling and having amazingly inadequate transit until things get so bad we know it's time to stop even joking about that whole "world class city" thing.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

All day service on the Richmond Hill line would eliminate the need for this and be cheaper.

 

[DKsan]

All day service on the Richmond Hill line would eliminate the need for this and be cheaper.

Maybe if the Richmond Hill line had more stops south of Oriole.

 

[smallspy]

All day service on the Richmond Hill line would eliminate the need for this and be cheaper.

No it won't. The two lines largely serve two completely different markets.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And one of the TBMs will be called Thorny since it would tunnel into Thornhill!

 

[gweed123]

Are you sure it would take so long for the DRL to do it's EA? The Yonge extension was the first project done under the province's new process for transit and I don't think it was much more than a year, end to end.

That said, this problem is a complex one at this point. The fact is that the extension was one of Metrolinx's Top 15 projects and the DRL was on their long-term list. I think both should have been Top 15 but at this point I guess the city can lobby to get DRL moved up. Even if Stephen Harper announced a new national transit plan tomorrow, including $20B for the GTA, I don't think it makes sense to wait on Yonge to do the DRL. I understand the concerns about capacity etc. but we have to just get building and they are very far down the road with the detailed work, not the least of which is the complete EA. I think they should find money (that's the tricky part!) start building Yonge and roll directly into the DRL.

My prediction is less optimistic. I expect Metrolinx will announce its investment strategy in about six months and there will be either another minority Lib or PC government, neither of whom will want to touch "new taxes" with a 10-foot pole. In 2014, once they have a new mayor, Toronto can talk about doing that stuff on their own, and then funding the DRL or whatever they want. Either way, Metrolinx's role as a regional transit planning authority will be totally undermined by then and the Big Move will be worthless. Then, maybe, projects like the Yonge subway will continue to get piecemeal funding as they have in the past.

Hopefully it won't go down that way. Bringing the Yonge subway to Steeles is pointless. I know that, politically, Torontonians don't want to hear that but if that subway doesn't go up to Hwy. 7, York can't develop the RHC/Langstaff area. And if that happens, Places to Grow will be as worthless as Metrolinx and the entire regional planning regime the province put in place will blow up by 2015 and we'll keep sprawling and having amazingly inadequate transit until things get so bad we know it's time to stop even joking about that whole "world class city" thing.

It's not the EA that would be the problem, it would be the route selection and the public consultations. Just think how many debates have been had on UT about alignments and stuff, and this is between people who pretty much universally agree that the DRL is a top priority. Imagine throwing people into the mix who think any transit into downtown is elitist.

All I'm hoping for at this point is that by the time the Yonge extension opens, the DRL is either under construction, or has all it's ducks in a row so that it can begin construction very shortly. Because as soon as the Yonge line gets the added ridership from the extension tacked on, Torontonians are going to realize that they need the DRL asap (more-so than many do now). If the background studies are ready to go (much like the Yonge extension is now), funding would hopefully come relatively quickly, because there would be a sense of extreme urgency.

There's nothing like being tossed in a pot of boiling water to get your butt in gear.

 

[xtremesniper]

Extending the subway past Steeles is the last priority on the list. The whole Transit debate made Torontonians more aware of the transit plans and their implications. More and more was I hearing, reading and listening to more citizen wondering "WTF??? why a subway to Vaughan, with our taxes??? That money could have paid the Scarborough Subway and start the DRL."

My point is, selling Torontonians the idea of building subways past Steeles will be a very tough sell in the future. I predict citizens massively opposing that project as long as the DRL, Eglinton to the Airport, Danforth Line to STC and Sheppard are built first...

Extending the line to Steeeles will happen but beyond? Let's say things won't go as smoothly as when Vaughan got their "Metropolitan Station"

I'm sorry but that's kind of pathetic reasoning. I'm sure the 416ers should at least be aware that anything north of Steeles is not paid by their taxes at all. As stated already, York Region and Ontario cover the costs for those areas.

With the typical 416 attitude of "905ers shouldn't be allowed to ride the TTC", I wonder if they'll shut their yap when they realize they can now ride the rocket into York Region? Or should the 905ers turn around and verbally condemn them for using "their part" of the service, too?

We have enough pathetic political issues when it comes to transit management already. The last thing we need is for the customers themselves to get involved in their own useless bickering.

 

[gweed123]

I'm sorry but that's kind of pathetic reasoning. I'm sure the 416ers should at least be aware that anything north of Steeles is not paid by their taxes at all. As stated already, York Region and Ontario cover the costs for those areas.

With the typical 416 attitude of "905ers shouldn't be allowed to ride the TTC", I wonder if they'll shut their yap when they realize they can now ride the rocket into York Region? Or should the 905ers turn around and verbally condemn them for using "their part" of the service, too?

We have enough pathetic political issues when it comes to transit management already. The last thing we need is for the customers themselves to get involved in their own useless bickering.

It's stuff like this why I think that transit service (all of it) should just be uploaded to Metrolinx. Using municipal borders to delineate transit service areas makes very little sense when the trip patterns don't take into account those borders at all.

Create 1 transit system for the entire GTHA and be done with it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's stuff like this why I think that transit service (all of it) should just be uploaded to Metrolinx. Using municipal borders to delineate transit service areas makes very little sense when the trip patterns don't take into account those borders at all.

Create 1 transit system for the entire GTHA and be done with it.

Yeah, Metrolinx has missed a chance to asssert it's authority the last couple of years. I understand why the TTC has to have a Toronto-first attitude but that's a hindrance when you're trying to construct a regional network.

Case in point: the comment above that more service on the RH GO line eliminates the need for a subway extension. If I live in a shiny, new condo at Yonge/7, perhaps you can explain to me how that GO train helps me get to North York Centre. Or Yonge/Eg or, in fact, anywhere other than Union Station. A transit system has to take people to/from where they need to go, not merely funnel people in and out of downtown or stop every time it hits a line someone drew on a map generations ago. IMHO.

 

[balenciaga]

It's not the EA that would be the problem, it would be the route selection and the public consultations. Just think how many debates have been had on UT about alignments and stuff, and this is between people who pretty much universally agree that the DRL is a top priority. Imagine throwing people into the mix who think any transit into downtown is elitist.

This is one thing I never understand: how does constructing a DRL serve the downtown dwellers or elites?? Just because it goes to downtown doesn't mean it serves downtown people mostly, does it? If it is constructed, the people who will benefit from it most are those who live in the suburbs but need to go to downtown frequently for work - pretty much the mainstream middle class and working class families.

If we construct a downtown loop from Parliament to Bathurst, then that's probably serving downtown, How is a DRL, considered elitist at all? Downtowners probably hardly need to take the DRL to visit say Don Mills. What's there anyway?

 

[lister]

This is one thing I never understand: how does constructing a DRL serve the downtown dwellers or elites?? Just because it goes to downtown doesn't mean it serves downtown people mostly, does it? If it is constructed, the people who will benefit from it most are those who live in the suburbs but need to go to downtown frequently for work - pretty much the mainstream middle class and working class families.

If we construct a downtown loop from Parliament to Bathurst, then that's probably serving downtown, How is a DRL, considered elitist at all? Downtowners probably hardly need to take the DRL to visit say Don Mills. What's there anyway?

Sure it does. It removes people from the YUS line. Since I both live and work downtown I don't take the subway a lot anymore. I used to before 2005 and for the few times in the past few years I have taken it during rush hour the difference now is rather remarkable. I've taken the subway numerous times from St Andrews going up to Wellesley during rush hour and it's amazing to see the subway jam packed after King and nobody being able to get on from Queen up to Bloor. It's very crowded. A DRL benefits me, a downtowner, greatly in reducing the amount of bodies on the YUS line and makes for a better ride.

Yeah I *COULD* walk up to Yonge & Wellesley but those trips were time sensitive. Biking isn't an option either due to the activities involved (ie: drinking.)

 

[gweed123]

Yeah, Metrolinx has missed a chance to asssert it's authority the last couple of years. I understand why the TTC has to have a Toronto-first attitude but that's a hindrance when you're trying to construct a regional network.

Case in point: the comment above that more service on the RH GO line eliminates the need for a subway extension. If I live in a shiny, new condo at Yonge/7, perhaps you can explain to me how that GO train helps me get to North York Centre. Or Yonge/Eg or, in fact, anywhere other than Union Station. A transit system has to take people to/from where they need to go, not merely funnel people in and out of downtown or stop every time it hits a line someone drew on a map generations ago. IMHO.

Personally I think they're both needed, but your point is well taken. A Richmond Hill GO REX would take a lot of pressure off the Yonge line (especially if they moved the Old Cummer stop to Finch East, the Oriole stop to Leslie Stn, and moved the line to using the CPR tracks around Don Mills and added a stop at Eglinton), but the Yonge subway extension would still be needed. Building a full GO REX would probably bring the projected ridership of the subway extension into the range where it could be handled by LRT, but building a linear transfer would just be a dumb idea. Better to just stick with subway technology and terminate the line at RHC. Heading north from there it can be BRT or LRT, whatever can appropriately handle the demand. At least then the mode switch will be occurring at a hub, and not mid-stream (like Kennedy or Don Mills).

This is one thing I never understand: how does constructing a DRL serve the downtown dwellers or elites?? Just because it goes to downtown doesn't mean it serves downtown people mostly, does it? If it is constructed, the people who will benefit from it most are those who live in the suburbs but need to go to downtown frequently for work - pretty much the mainstream middle class and working class families.

If we construct a downtown loop from Parliament to Bathurst, then that's probably serving downtown, How is a DRL, considered elitist at all? Downtowners probably hardly need to take the DRL to visit say Don Mills. What's there anyway?

I never said the argument made any sense outside of the NeoCon bubble . But the fact is there will be people who will reject it out of hand just because it has the word "downtown" in it. That's why I think when it reaches the public consultation phase, we should start referring to it as the Don Mills Subway instead. That would make even more sense if it was connected to the University-Spadina Subway, because then we could just call it the Spadina-Don Mills Subway (given the liking this city has for hyphenating nearly every subway line that it has).

What is needed though, once the line reaches the public consultation phase, is a PR campaign detailing how this line is going to benefit everybody. Not just downtowners. Not just subway users. Everybody. If they're still against the project then, then those people probably belong to the group that believes that tax cuts pay for themselves, and that the entire government deficit can be eliminated just by cutting waste. No amount of logic or reason is going to reach those people. The campaign would need to focus on those people who can still be swayed by reason, but just haven't been properly explained the benefits.

 

[diminutive]

I'm surprised by how high demand on this project is! They're predicting peak demand levels higher than a DRL, which I find counter-intuitive to say the least.

I do think this has more promise than a beefed up GO line. You would have to S-Bahnify (double track, electrify) like 35km of the Richmond Hill Line to get frequent service to Richmond Hill Center. Obviously subway is more expensive per km, but since you would have to upgrade nearly 5x the amount of track I can't see any clear cost advantage, and stations beyond Richmond Hill clearly will never justify anything more than a handful of peak period trains.

The SBahned Richmond Hill Line would then still have lower ridership due to lack of feasible 416 stations, and would probably be more 'peaky' (ALL ridership to Union), producing lower utilization rates.

The way things have played out it seems like York Region will get the bulk of its rapid transit from the YUS Lines into Vaughan and Richmond Hill. Maybe the Stouffville line has more potential for SBahnification, but Barrie & Richmond Hill don't seem capable of much.