BMO
Senior Member
Here here!
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Here here!
Palma
Senior Member
Really! Metrolinx takes over and all they will be concerned with is transit to the suburbs and outlining region. Thats what GO is for not a subway up to hwy 7 for people to use in the AM and PM (perhaps) and thats it. People are just interested in a subway because they are interested in their property values rising and its cheaper than taking GO. Just like suburbans councillors hijacked the transit agenda and did away with fares based on distance and why a DRL has never been built. Which is why they better start the TTC fares going towards distance based. The TTC should be the one to decide where a subway should go since they operate the system and know which routes are busy and which are not. Gov't just care about votes. Its why that Sheppard subway was built and the Spadina extension to nowhere - Its called the TORONTO Transit Commission. Toronto ends at Steele
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salsa
Senior Member
So no one goes north of Steeles?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Palma
Senior Member
I meant the name. Eventually you will need to change the name especially if people in Vaughan and RichmondHill start going on about it. If you live north of Steele take GO and or thats where the province needs to expand transit to get people from those regions to downtown Toronto
salsa
Senior Member
Don't talk nonsense. There's only wilderness north of Steeles.
I wish. That would have been so much better than the strip malls, gas stations, and parking lots that define the 905.
Fair enough. Many people seem to argue against extending the subway north of Steeles just because it crosses some artificial boundary, not because of lack of density or whatever. By that logic, YRT should stop coming to Finch station, and Mississauga buses should hit the brakes when they enter Etobicoke. Cuz you know, it's not "Toronto transit".
Edward
Senior Member
We're all one folks. As long, of course, as we pay equally for it. Would hate to see Toronto property taxes subsidizing riders not paying their share.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Arguably Toronto is already facing that problem, with an 80% recovery ratio, or wherever it is now. But that said, clearly the plan is to make the revenue tools region-wide. I think we'd probably all agree that this should be part of a larger effort to think regionally. That means both within Toronto (where Ford has capitalized on this city vs. suburb mentality) but also between the 416 and 905. There's virtually no difference between Thornhill and Willowdale, to use one easy example.
Back on thread, there is something ironic about the fact that Toronto only got moving on the DRL, which they should have build years ago, when York Region forced their hand. "Oh, suburbanites want to STOP using cars? I guess we should bring our transit network into the 1980s then!"
On the other hand, my concern is that crucial regional projects (obviously, like this one) are now being held hostage to Toronto's rather disastrous transit "planning." Suburbs that want to intensify have to wait for Toronto to get its house on order. On the hand, that's only fair. On the other hand, when you're trying to build a regional network and one agency is so dominant (and so far behind) a lot of bold, bigger thinking is required to move the ball downfield (to use a Fordian football metaphor).
Glen
Senior Member
Do you even realize that in the last decade, Vaughan has been a net importer of labour from Toronto? The notion that all higher order transit should be geared towards funneling people downtown is at odds Toronto's reality.
BMO
Senior Member
To be honest, I'd like to see what percentage of TTC users, who fairly pay their way each day, are from the 905. It's really useless to start throwing out the "pay their share" argument. Whenever people come into Toronto to work, buy food, purchase goods or ride the TTC their money is as good as anyone's and actually pays for the services that they and Toronto users access every day. If the TTC was so expensive people couldn't afford it to move around you'd soon start seeing companies moving to areas where people could access it easier, etc. Transit is a tool that unlocks a city's potential and simply is not a "nice to have" it is a necessity that Toronto must pay regardless of if the region pays their fair share as it improves Toronto's competitive advantage. As much as people in the region need the TTC, Toronto needs it more. Is it any wonder so many companies are moving to the core after so many years of car dominated suburban business parks? It's because the core is simply the easiest place accessible throughout the GTA for a diversified work force. As soon as it becomes less accessible than another area you'll start seeing companies move away, and with them taxes, jobs and other benefits Toronto enjoys. So the whole issue is not as clear cut as a matter of paying for transit, but a matter of just doing the right thing regardless of who's fair share it is. Some would argue the external benefits and advantages of improved Transit would almost undoubtedly favour Toronto. What I'm saying is we have to get out of this mentality and just come up with a plan first and figure out how to pay for it afterwards. Transit simply should not be a matter where we only provide what we can afford but provide what we need. Think of it as healthcare for a city and currently it's veins are clogged.
All this and I didn't even mention that Toronto is quickly becoming a bedroom community for the suburbs!
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Edward
Senior Member
In 2009 the City Of Toronto paid $428 million or 31% of the TTC operating budget. $428 million that came from my property taxes along with those of other Toronto property owners. $428 million that did not come from property owners in 905. There's no reason for me to support expansion to Richmond Hill (no matter how much I think it might help the GTA) if it means property taxes having to go up in Toronto to pay for it. No reason. Share the costs across the entire region or not at all.
Someone posted above that there's no difference between Thornhill and Willowdale. For most things that is correct. One difference is the person owning a house on the south side of Steeles is paying to subsidize the TTC while someone owning a property on the north side of Steeles isn't. And that's for the exact same service.
Someone posted above that there's no difference between Thornhill and Willowdale. For most things that is correct. One difference is the person owning a house on the south side of Steeles is paying to subsidize the TTC while someone owning a property on the north side of Steeles isn't. And that's for the exact same service.
nfitz
Superstar
What about those that who live on the south side of Steeles using VIVA? The person owning a house on the south side of Steeles isn't paying to subsidize VIVA while someone owning a property on the north side of Steeles is.
Though I agree, that once the subway starts penetrating 905, that there needs to be direct subsidy, the same way that Region of York directly subsidizes TTC for running TTC buses north of Steeles.
BMO
Senior Member
Oh so those property taxes that companies pay based off of revenues that people in Toronto AND the 905 generate don't subsidize the transit system? Nor do the revenues that companies in Toronto generate through 905 passengers going downtown and purchasing goods? And for that matter the Province usually kicks in a few hundred million towards Toronto which is money from people all over Ontario who are paying for apparently YOUR transit system. Unless you want people from the 905 clogging YOUR roads and YOUR facilities it's probably prudent to facilitate these people getting OUT of YOUR city.
I know I'm sounding a bit rude but at the end of the day you're paying for transit one way or another whether it's through taxes or lost productivity and revenue created by said lack of transit. Agreed that everyone has to pay for it, but if you believe you're not ALREADY paying for it because you don't want your property taxes to improve the transit, then that's where I find issue. And hey York Region would gladly pay the cost of the subway if we didn't have to pay a double fare to use it! Doesn't seem very "fair" does it? A subway going into York Region yet York Region has to pay twice to use it and has no ownership of it even though York Region paid a "fair" sum for the Spadina Extension. I know that it's just capital cost and not maintenance (which is a larger sum over time), but that's theoretically what the farebox is for.
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TFC
Active Member
We should try to convince those people to take the GO Train. They'd be downtown in 45-50 minutes, and have a seat the whole way there! Even if they don't work immediately beside Union Station, I'm pretty sure that the commute from Richmond Hill to downtown can be done more comfortably and quicker on the GO Train.
BMO
Senior Member
If you're south of Hwy 7 it takes way longer to go to the Langstaff GO with transit. You'd have to drive there (which is almost just as long as going to finch). Not to mention how much more it costs, when a lot of people close to Steeles can just walk to a TTC bus and get downtown for $3. I imagine most people north of Hwy 7 are already mostly taking GO unless they are getting off on a stop in midtown, etc instead of Union. GO really just caters to the downtown core. If it could have a direct connection to Sheppard at Oriole Station this could change things.