SarcasticMarmot said:
Almost like they have no place to go. Spend all the money you want on enforcement and unless you are willing to haul everyone to jail (Edmonton Remand is already the largest prison in Canada) then you are just moving the problem around. Push them out of transit and they will be in business entryways.

Until people have a place to go its just an endless game of whack-a-mole on the taxpayer dime.
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I still think this is a false dichotomy though.

Of course we need long term solutions.

But we can also say, for the meantime, if there are going to be unhoused people, we should minimize their negative impacts on other citizens too. Why should a 19 year old girl going to uni on the train need to worry about getting stabbed by the methhead tripping on the platform? It’s inexcusable.

If people are going to sleep outside, use drugs, etc, we should seek to keep them in places that reduces overall crime, violence, and disorder. Letting them stay in our most high value, busy, and critical infrastructure…train stations….it’s stupid. It’s not a short term solution, and obviously not a long term one either.

There are many other places in the short term that are better than train shelters and stations.

We can’t let great stop good. Housing everyone and stopping drug use and doing all the right things would be great. But “good” also looks like ensuring innocent, everyday, and often vulnerable (elderly, female, youth, disabled) people can safely use a transit system they rely on. That’s a very fair expectation.

I’m very happy to “move the problem around” in the short term of it means transit is safe and attractive to use.
 
thommyjo said:
I’m very happy to “move the problem around” in the short term of it means transit is safe and attractive to use.
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That's just it, you can't move the problem around enough to actually make transit safe and attractive to use. I don't disagree with your premise that the great shouldn't stop the good. What I disagree with is the idea that there is enough enforcement possible to make the LRT safe without throwing everyone in jail. Kick someone out of the one LRT shelter and they will just move into another one. There are very limited publicly available spaces to get out of the elements in our city and desperate people will keep going back to them no matter the enforcement level. It really sucks and I wish it weren't so but it's not a problem of enforcement, we spend the most in the country per capita on our Police and it's getting us nowhere. Basically, no matter what the City does the problem is here to stay until the Province actually gets its act together and starts investing in housing people.
 
Controversial opinion: just criminalize the use of hard drugs specifically when it takes place on transit property (and for that matter, rec centers, libraries and all other municipal facilities) and penalize it with jail time or forced rehab. If you're gonna do hard drugs, sure, decriminalize it so your addiction doesn't earn you a record, but let's at least send a harsher message on where you can't do it (the LRT). Sleeping in the station to escape the cold is one thing, and I'm somewhat willing to tolerate it until there's available shelter space as long as there's no illegal activity and things are kept clean. Smoking meth on the train is where I draw the line.
 
SarcasticMarmot said:
That's just it, you can't move the problem around enough to actually make transit safe and attractive to use. I don't disagree with your premise that the great shouldn't stop the good. What I disagree with is the idea that there is enough enforcement possible to make the LRT safe without throwing everyone in jail. Kick someone out of the one LRT shelter and they will just move into another one. There are very limited publicly available spaces to get out of the elements in our city and desperate people will keep going back to them no matter the enforcement level. It really sucks and I wish it weren't so but it's not a problem of enforcement, we spend the most in the country per capita on our Police and it's getting us nowhere. Basically, no matter what the City does the problem is here to stay until the Province actually gets its act together and starts investing in housing people.
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Vancouver has significantly more homeless people and way worse drug use. Their transit system is 99% clean. Ours is like 60% at best.

There’s obviously ways to make it work. Transit police, better cleaning, turnstiles, enforcement on streets….funding.

What we have is a choice. The overall state of things is very complex and not an easy solve. But transit having the problems it is is literally just 10 stations needing constant patrolling and better cleaning. That’d solve 90% of the short term problem. But our police don’t care and our council has lost the levers to make them accountable.
 
thommyjo said:
Vancouver has significantly more homeless people and way worse drug use. Their transit system is 99% clean. Ours is like 60% at best.

There’s obviously ways to make it work. Transit police, better cleaning, turnstiles, enforcement on streets….funding.

What we have is a choice. The overall state of things is very complex and not an easy solve. But transit having the problems it is is literally just 10 stations needing constant patrolling and better cleaning. That’d solve 90% of the short term problem. But our police don’t care and our council has lost the levers to make them accountable.
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That's because its not -35C there in the winter time.......our homeless want to get out of from outside...whereas in YVR - the underground stations are the same temp as outside....... You're right the stations themselves appear to be clean but as soon as you emerge outside at Granville or Waterfront - BAM! It's homeless Zombieland......
 
MacLac said:
That's because its not -35C there in the winter time.......our homeless want to get out of from outside...whereas in YVR - the underground stations are the same temp as outside....... You're right the stations themselves appear to be clean but as soon as you emerge outside at Granville or Waterfront - BAM! It's homeless Zombieland......
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So we have no issues with drug use and homeless people all summer here…? Nope. Still a big problem. So don’t blame weather.

YVR is all so wet and rainy. Literally worse for staying outside vs cold but dry.

And idc if east hastings is the way it is (of course it’s horrible and sad) if the train is at least usable and safe for the hundreds of thousands that need to use it daily.

Let the quarters and those areas be what they are for now. It sucks, but better there then in Churchill station. Keep the stations safe and clean and keep the revolving door going as long as is needed until long term solutions work. Don’t give up and let the stations become what they have.
 
or idk there's genuine reason to actually not take EPS at their word and be suspicious at their actions and lack of accountability in some aspects? It's a not so open secret that there's significant issues with EPS. It's not Valley Line related anymore so I'll stop with this.
 
MacLac said:
That's because its not -35C there in the winter time.......our homeless want to get out of from outside...whereas in YVR - the underground stations are the same temp as outside....... You're right the stations themselves appear to be clean but as soon as you emerge outside at Granville or Waterfront - BAM! It's homeless Zombieland......
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Also, in part because of very high housing costs, they manage to confine the poverty, homelessness problem to a very concentrated ghetto like area. Probably not a good idea to try follow, but it keeps it mostly out of sight/out of mind for them. So, as long as you stay away from that particular area, it seems great.
 
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whattheheck said:
I find it funny when people say 'police don't care'. When police actually try to do something, they get lambasted by the social media mobs or taken to court or have the mayor scold them publicly.
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I’ve got multiple family members and friends in EPS. I both feel a lot of empathy for the very difficult jobs they have and impossible public perception challenges they have to navigate. AND I can see pretty clearly even in those I know why there’s likely issues. The attitudes most of they hold are deeply divisive, anti city/council, most live out of the city and speak horribly about Edmonton. None of them use transit and most would be upper middle class or higher and carry pretty elitist views.

Totally get how the job can make you cynical, jaded, and more likely to dehumanize others….but it’s not the attitude that’ll get us where we need to be.

The police have underfunded and under supported downtown and transit. That’s just facts. What their intentions are is speculation. But my sense from those I know is that it’s not ignorance. It’s politics. So when people are dying and getting hurt, just know that many cops are ok with that trade off for the higher pay they get from helping themselves be “more needed”.

Tons of great cops doing very good work in our city. Also very fair for them to be highly scrutinized and criticized when crime is increasing and they’reour biggest budget line.

You don’t blame Derek Ryan when the oilers lose 8 straight. You look at those making the big bucks, mcdavid/drai. The police make the big bucks, so how about they make things better or stop asking for money and support alternatives.

I bet if we tied police pay to transit safety metrics we’d be shocked at what’s possible 🙃🙃🙃
 
thommyjo said:
I’ve got multiple family members and friends in EPS. I both feel a lot of empathy for the very difficult jobs they have and impossible public perception challenges they have to navigate. AND I can see pretty clearly even in those I know why there’s likely issues. The attitudes most of they hold are deeply divisive, anti city/council, most live out of the city and speak horribly about Edmonton. None of them use transit and most would be upper middle class or higher and carry pretty elitist views.

Totally get how the job can make you cynical, jaded, and more likely to dehumanize others….but it’s not the attitude that’ll get us where we need to be.

The police have underfunded and under supported downtown and transit. That’s just facts. What their intentions are is speculation. But my sense from those I know is that it’s not ignorance. It’s politics. So when people are dying and getting hurt, just know that many cops are ok with that trade off for the higher pay they get from helping themselves be “more needed”.

Tons of great cops doing very good work in our city. Also very fair for them to be highly scrutinized and criticized when crime is increasing and they’reour biggest budget line.

You don’t blame Derek Ryan when the oilers lose 8 straight. You look at those making the big bucks, mcdavid/drai. The police make the big bucks, so how about they make things better or stop asking for money and support alternatives.

I bet if we tied police pay to transit safety metrics we’d be shocked at what’s possible 🙃🙃🙃
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One thing they do well is put out accurate warnings of those who are being released and likely to reoffend.. and then arresting them again in 1 or 2 days. It’s too bad they have to keep wasting their time on this kind of stuff while our justice system keeps letting these animals free time after time after time after time after time after time
 
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