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Big Daddy

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but clearly Bazis has demostrated that a foreign company can not be depended upon to build something unique ~ in this instance, it was not even able build anything at all on this site :p


True, but the economy played the biggest role in this case. Given the sales it seems apparent they could have built exactly what they planned. Even Lehman Brothers - a very respected international financial power house - was on board.
 
True, but the economy played the biggest role in this case. Given the sales it seems apparent they could have built exactly what they planned. Even Lehman Brothers - a very respected international financial power house - was on board.


unfortunately Bazis was also relying on a large international Kazechstan financial institution undergoing investigation.
 
Gerry Miller, a real estate lawyer and partner at Gardiner Miller Arnold, said ...... he would have steered his own clients away from 1 Bloor. "It was too expensive and unlikely viable ... it was just too big, too grand," he said.

Great, now we have a DA lawyer giving developers and clients real estate advice. maybe I should ask my doctor for legal advice. Brilliant stuff too, "don't build a large iconic building at the busiest intersection in the biggest city in the country, its too... grand". Stick to your ambulance chasing and let the developers develop.
 
True, but the economy played the biggest role in this case. Given the sales it seems apparent they could have built exactly what they planned. Even Lehman Brothers - a very respected international financial power house - was on board.
It turns out Lehman Bros wasn't actually making the greatest decisions.
 
unfortunately Bazis was also relying on a large international Kazechstan financial institution undergoing investigation.

Come on guys, hind sight is 20:20 - nobody saw this financial crisis coming and some pretty big, much respected companies lost everything. Bazis couldn't control the financial institutions decisions any more than the American government could control the U.S. banks. Let’s face it, Bazis got caught by the crisis just as Lehman brothers and others but there is no reason to believe 1 Bloor would not have been hugely successful if it were not for the melt down. Just look at the sales.
 
Great, now we have a DA lawyer giving developers and clients real estate advice. maybe I should ask my doctor for legal advice. Brilliant stuff too, "don't build a large iconic building at the busiest intersection in the biggest city in the country, its too... grand". Stick to your ambulance chasing and let the developers develop.

Thats pretty common in land development! EVERYONE is an expert and gives their expert advice in situations that do not warrant their advice! The lawyers, the marketing teams, the real-estate agents, my taxi-driver,

In this article alone we have:
- Lawyers giving their advise on not buying and the viability of a project that they are not directly involved in;
- Agents giving their advise to GG about giving special deals
- a Re/Max agent talking about "inflated prices" and "It will be a significant mistake to throw all the people out and start again"

Personally, I just hope I never see that silly advert with the lady's mouth and diamonds ever again!

At the end of the day, the developer / builder needs to know the industry inside out and be able to make good business decisions based on facts, previous experience, and advice from experts the in particular field they are advising in.

M.
 
Come on guys, hind sight is 20:20 - nobody saw this financial crisis coming and some pretty big, much respected companies lost everything. Bazis couldn't control the financial institutions decisions any more than the American government could control the U.S. banks. Let’s face it, Bazis got caught by the crisis just as Lehman brothers and others but there is no reason to believe 1 Bloor would not have been hugely successful if it were not for the melt down. Just look at the sales.

But long before the financial meltdown, this project was making the circles at the construction lenders in town and had been turned down numerous times while other projects were being financed.....the meltdown did not help but this project had challenges before that. It was always going to be an uphill challenge.
 
I'm surprised Great Gulf was willing or preferred to let go of Bazis' much pre-sold skyscraper in favour of starting from scratch. I actually liked the Varacalli design, and thought the corner would rock with the retail/Sofitel Hotel component. In any case, I do hope that an innovative design replaces the Bazis plan. One thing I wouldn't like to see is a mediocre 50-storey building when a grand skyscraper (perhaps with a bit of a public square component) is most appropriate at this intersection. Does Great Gulf think they can sell something here AGAIN at $1,000 psf - or more? Can they make a profit with something smaller/cheaper?

There are way too many factors to really be able to answer this without knowing the details. They do know how to run numbers though and when they buy the land, presumably, they are buying it at a price that supports what they are planning and will produce a profit with that project.

I am guessing that they have bought the land relatively cheaply, the land is closer to being development ready than the previous owner had, and that what they are planning to build will have a lower construction cost....therefore a lower price point could still produce a profit.
 
But long before the financial meltdown, this project was making the circles at the construction lenders in town and had been turned down numerous times while other projects were being financed.....the meltdown did not help but this project had challenges before that. It was always going to be an uphill challenge.

To add to this comment there were other major challenges long before the financial crisis with the industry regulator that at one point threatened to derail the project (as well as their North York project). Bazis was shopping the site around in spring 2008 to a couple other developers and no one wanted to partner with them.
 
Come on guys, hind sight is 20:20 - nobody saw this financial crisis coming and some pretty big, much respected companies lost everything.
A lot of economists were predicting this crisis even 5 years ago, for example Peter Schiff. But they were laughed at. By the way the crisis is not over. It even did not start yet, just postponed by governments by injecting the bogus money into economy which is going to make the second wave even more devastating.
 
By the way the crisis is not over. It even did not start yet, just postponed by governments by injecting the bogus money into economy which is going to make the second wave even more devastating.

Yeah i hear you...... Let's find a cave, get enough food and weather the storm. :rolleyes:
 
A lot of economists were predicting this crisis even 5 years ago, for example Peter Schiff. But they were laughed at. By the way the crisis is not over. It even did not start yet, just postponed by governments by injecting the bogus money into economy which is going to make the second wave even more devastating.

Is that you Garth?
 
Wow -- few people can make me feel like a bull, but you just did it!

A lot of economists were predicting this crisis even 5 years ago, for example Peter Schiff. But they were laughed at. By the way the crisis is not over. It even did not start yet, just postponed by governments by injecting the bogus money into economy which is going to make the second wave even more devastating.

1. Peter Schiff is not an economist. He's a broker. With a certain world view that's been proven to be more than a little suspect as an investment guide. So, take his prescriptions with a grain of salt.

2. Toronto, and Canada, has been protected from the US meltdown by the relatively more conservative debt ratios the banks held and the much more conservative debt levels of the individual consumer. Even if we have a second wave (the famous 'W' recession), we will probably not have one that's 'even more devastating'. The highly-levered companies and consumers just don't exist.

3. Which brings us to our Khazaki friends -- they were ripe for a fall, given the debt they were levering. That it happened in our fair city just means that someone local (GG, I guess) gets to come in and finish the project and make the money Bazis would have made, if they'd had a more conservative profile.

I'll be happy to see something interesting happen on this site. I like the tower/podium/plaza combo suggested in the G&M RE piece -- I'd go with restos and bars rather than theatres or retail, but that's b/c I'm more of a patio guy than a movie guy.
 
1. Peter Schiff is not an economist. He's a broker. With a certain world view that's been proven to be more than a little suspect as an investment guide. So, take his prescriptions with a grain of salt.

2. Toronto, and Canada, has been protected from the US meltdown by the relatively more conservative debt ratios the banks held and the much more conservative debt levels of the individual consumer. Even if we have a second wave (the famous 'W' recession), we will probably not have one that's 'even more devastating'. The highly-levered companies and consumers just don't exist.

3. Which brings us to our Khazaki friends -- they were ripe for a fall, given the debt they were levering. That it happened in our fair city just means that someone local (GG, I guess) gets to come in and finish the project and make the money Bazis would have made, if they'd had a more conservative profile.

I'll be happy to see something interesting happen on this site. I like the tower/podium/plaza combo suggested in the G&M RE piece -- I'd go with restos and bars rather than theatres or retail, but that's b/c I'm more of a patio guy than a movie guy.

Peter Schiff may be a stock broker, but he has an excellent understanding of free market economics. What he is saying, and what he has always said, is that interest rates have been far too low for far too long. Cheap, easy money creates malinvestment, which in turn creates unsustainable economic bubbles (real estate, tech, etc). Once the bubbles pop, we get into the type of trouble we are in now. He rightfully believes that we have not gotten out of this mess because the Federal Reserve has reacted by lowering interest rates even further. This makes money even cheaper than before. It creates more malinvestment, and ultimately just reinflates the bubble, which will eventually pop again. And what happens when it pops again? The Federal Reserve used up their magic bullet by lowering interest rates to almost zero at the present time. Are they going to introduce negative interest rates? I don't think so. In reality, they will eventually have no choice but to raise interest rates. When the Federal Reserve expands the money supply, like they are doing now (creating money and credit out of thin air), it will lead to higher prices. The only way to stem the tide is to raise interest rates. Imagine being in a situation where the central bank has to deal with a shrinking economy, and rising prices at the same time? That's what us free market believers call stagflation (something keynesians didn't believe in until 1960).

As for our situation in Canada, we have our challenges as well. Our central bank has also lowered interest rates to a unacceptably low level. They too, have created too much cheap and easy money. We are seeing it now with the rise in home prices once again. The Canadian Government also reported a record defecit for the year, 50 billion dollars. Compare that to the United States which had a 500 billion dollar defecit last year. On a per captia basis, our defecit is the same. As for defecit spending itself, that's money the government doesn't have, and they must get one way or another. They can either print the difference, they can sell bonds, or they can raise taxes. If they print the difference, that is inflation of the money supply. Coupled with all the cheap and easy money we have available, we will also experience a situation where we could have higher prices and a shrinking economy. Not good.

So basically, we are not immune. The economic mistakes are friends to the south have made are also being made up here.

As for us not having highly leveraged companies or consumers, how do you know? Are you so sure that if interest rates go up to 5, 7, 0r 10%, that people that bought homes now will still be able to afford it? And that's the real danger once the effects of inflation are felt (higher prices). The BoC and Fed are trying to fix one crisis, but in the process are creating another. It's as if their attitude is "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it".

Anyway, sorry to go OT. Just my $0.02.
 
I have to correct one blatant glaring mistake you made, which discredits you and therefore your whole argument.

The Canadian government did NOT report a 50 billion dollar deficit for the year, they are PROJECTING one for the 2009-10 fiscal year. The US may have had a 500 billion dollar deficit last year, but that was while the Canadian government had a 2 billion dollar deficit for the 2008-09 fiscal year. So you can't say that's the same on a per-capita basis! For 09-10, the US's deficit will be closer to $1 trillion.

I won't address the rest of your comments, you had some interesting points, but the truth is nobody really knows what the future holds.

As for our situation in Canada, we have our challenges as well. Our central bank has also lowered interest rates to a unacceptably low level. They too, have created too much cheap and easy money. We are seeing it now with the rise in home prices once again. The Canadian Government also reported a record defecit for the year, 50 billion dollars. Compare that to the United States which had a 500 billion dollar defecit [sic] last year. On a per captia basis, our defecit is the same. As for defecit spending itself, that's money the government doesn't have, and they must get one way or another. They can either print the difference, they can sell bonds, or they can raise taxes. If they print the difference, that is inflation of the money supply. Coupled with all the cheap and easy money we have available, we will also experience a situation where we could have higher prices and a shrinking economy. Not good.

Anyway, sorry to go OT. Just my $0.02.
 

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