[adma]

What do you have against car forums?

More a matter of when Dichotomy's talking about other forums he's participated in as a comparison point to UT, I'd have expected ones more specifically political/cultural in outlook. Whereas car forums, while fine for discussing car issues, seem rather piddly relative to the bigger picture--and given the subject matter, with a probable high quotient of heavily Y-chromosomed beet-red loudmouth schnooks who curse Jane Jacobs like they owe her alimoany (misspelling intentional) or something. They bring out the Valerie Solanas in me...

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

alimoany

LOL! you better copyright that one.

 

[Dichotomy]

More a matter of when Dichotomy's talking about other forums he's participated in as a comparison point to UT, I'd have expected ones more specifically political/cultural in outlook. Whereas car forums, while fine for discussing car issues, seem rather piddly relative to the bigger picture--and given the subject matter, with a probable high quotient of heavily Y-chromosomed beet-red loudmouth schnooks who curse Jane Jacobs like they owe her alimoany (misspelling intentional) or something. They bring out the Valerie Solanas in me...

See, there you go again - your own prejudices are showing. You don't think that subjects like discussing the impact of CAFE ratings in the US., the fate of General Motors and Ford, or the free reign that Japan Inc has gotten in North America can get political? LOL

Just like one could get the impression that UT is nothing more than a bunch of college students swapping pictures of big holes in the ground and doing one big circle jerk? This forum is chicken feed to some of the debates I have seen. I know that posting on forums like UT is like pissing into the wind, but I want to see how BOTH sides think, whether I agree with it or not.
Nothing is more central to the fate of North America than its fading industrial base. You may like the fact that your bicycle is made in China or Japan, but looking at the greater picture here (which is woefully lacking on this forum), the fate of the automobile, bicycle lanes, the Gardiner and our Western way of life are irrevocably intertwined.

You may smurk, but I am not over-stating the case. Just like the whiners on UT who want to chase 'dirty' industrial jobs out of Toronto to make way for bicycle lanes, we are all going to be working for McDonalds of Wal-Mart in the future if we don't tread a little more carefully and get beyond our own personal prejudices.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Dicotomy:

If you don't like the forum, please feel free to leave - UT does not exist for your pleasure or your personal drama - much less to validate your belief in being the one and only who can see "the big picture". Other members have put in more effort in providing information, which includes but by no means limited to big holes in the ground. If you can't accept that as being an integral part of the forum without passing judgement on the effort required to provide that information, move on.

AoD

 

[ShonTron]

Our immigration system is for the large part a system that works fairly well....that's why the UK and a few other countries are now implementing systems similar to ours or studying ours in depth.

I'm not sure I agree with everything there, but you make some good points and some worthwhile suggestions. Five years does sound about right for minimum residency. I am a little bit concerned about how a language proficiency test would work, but I would hope that a candidate for citizenship be able to read and say the oath in an acceptable level of English or French and understand the meaning of it.

 

[Dichotomy]

Dicotomy:

If you don't like the forum, please feel free to leave - UT does not exist for your pleasure or your personal drama - much less to validate your belief in being the one and only who can see "the big picture". Other members have put in more effort in providing information, which includes but by no means limited to big holes in the ground. If you can't accept that as being an integral part of the forum without passing judgement on the effort required to provide that information, move on.

AoD

Ok. So, others are allowed to take potshots at my assertions (like Adma's remarks about car forums being 'piddly' when he/she knows nothing about them (clearly), then makes even more derogatory remarks about the genetic make up of those car forum 'types' - and that's okay?

Does the length of one's membership determine the validity of their arguments? Hmm. Sounds strange. I think I remember someone asserting that being Canadian-born does not give someone any more rights than an immigrant, so would that not mean then that length of membership is not a valid argument?

I was making a valid rebuttal to snide remarks aimed my way by a member who saw an opportunity to be nasty while answering a legitimate question from another member.

Perhaps some of you who have been posting on UT for years can't see the forest for the trees. I was merely making an observation, as one who has read through several hundred threads in the past month or so to play catch up, and what I do see are a lot of photos of big holes in the ground and lots of excited chatter about them. As a newcomer, it has been merely an observation.
I do not like starting fights but I won't necessarily back down. I have seen far worse rants and far worse attacks on the automotive forums - they can get very personal, too.
The one thing I do know is that the forums that shrivel and die are the ones where dissent is discouraged and members banned just because their opinions are different. The best forums are where lively banter from both sides (or many sides) goes back and forth for pages and pages. Those are the interesting ones. Those are the ones where everyone can learn.

I mean no disrespect in referring to pictures of holes in the ground, but you have to admit, to a casual reader there are a lot of them on this site.

 

[theowne]

We give up, Dichotomy. You are a genius. You are a intellectual. We bow beneath your utter superiority, and will never question you again. For we are all a bunch of morons staring at holes in the ground, incapable of such advanced political philosophy. As we disagree with your opinions, we are clearly buffoons and cannot conceive the vastness of the big picture you so eloquently paint.

All members of Urban Toronto salute our new master!

 

[urbandreamer]

Hey, I read http://www.carspyshots.net/ and www.autoblog.com and www.investorshub.com and many other political forums, as well as ssp/ssc/ut: does that make me a redneck?

I too think some of the Toronto Liberal Elite are extremely narrow-minded people. Heck, I'm willing to bet most of the Liberal Elite drive cars, probably SUV's and live in large homes in the 'burbs (anything north of St Clair is suburban.)

 

[lordmandeep]

I think the numbers of morons on the left equal the number of morons on the right.

You have the idealistic hippies thinking everything is going be alright to the people who are depressed and angry at the world.

 

[syn]

Ok. So, others are allowed to take potshots at my assertions (like Adma's remarks about car forums being 'piddly' when he/she knows nothing about them (clearly), then makes even more derogatory remarks about the genetic make up of those car forum 'types' - and that's okay?

Does the length of one's membership determine the validity of their arguments? Hmm. Sounds strange. I think I remember someone asserting that being Canadian-born does not give someone any more rights than an immigrant, so would that not mean then that length of membership is not a valid argument?

I was making a valid rebuttal to snide remarks aimed my way by a member who saw an opportunity to be nasty while answering a legitimate question from another member.

Perhaps some of you who have been posting on UT for years can't see the forest for the trees. I was merely making an observation, as one who has read through several hundred threads in the past month or so to play catch up, and what I do see are a lot of photos of big holes in the ground and lots of excited chatter about them. As a newcomer, it has been merely an observation.
I do not like starting fights but I won't necessarily back down. I have seen far worse rants and far worse attacks on the automotive forums - they can get very personal, too.
The one thing I do know is that the forums that shrivel and die are the ones where dissent is discouraged and members banned just because their opinions are different. The best forums are where lively banter from both sides (or many sides) goes back and forth for pages and pages. Those are the interesting ones. Those are the ones where everyone can learn.

I mean no disrespect in referring to pictures of holes in the ground, but you have to admit, to a casual reader there are a lot of them on this site.

Who cares? Development is a big part of this site and a lot of the members enjoy tracking them from the start.

As Alvin suggested - if you feel you're beyond that then leave. I'm not sure anyone will miss you.

 

[theowne]

Miss who?

 

[Tewder]

The whole 'multiculturalism is terrible!' meme is big amongst the small-but-loud very-right-wing Canadian contingent online. They hang out at smalldeadanimals.com and the freedominion.com forums, and also manage to politicize every single comment thread at the CBC.

I'm not even really sure what their argument is based on, honestly. There are very few first-world countries that can lay claim to a monoculture these days, and for good reasons. Multiculturalism surely does lead to some issues when cultures clash, but the benefits outweight the drawbacks. And, besides, short of isolationism and/or mind control, how would you ever stop it?

There is a difference between 'multiculturalism' as a state-sponsored policy, as practiced in Canada, and demographic diversity/pluralism in general. I think anybody would be hard-pressed to denounce diversity, but a criticism of multiculturalism is not only reasonable but indeed perhaps needed. The blurring of these two concepts as one, and the labeling of people as racist for trying to separate them, is what is truly tiring and counterproductive around here.

 

[theowne]

There is a difference between 'multiculturalism' as a state-sponsored policy, as practiced in Canada, and demographic diversity/pluralism in general. I think anybody would be hard-pressed to denounce diversity, but a criticism of multiculturalism is not only reasonable but indeed perhaps needed. The blurring of these two concepts as one, and the labeling of people as racist for trying to separate them, is what is truly tiring and counterproductive around here.

I agree. Melting pot > Multiculturalism.

 

[Dichotomy]

Agreed and agreed. The 'success' of the Western countries over the past 5-600 years has been largely due to their ablility to absorb new blood and new ideas, taking in the best and leaving the rest. I don't think any reasonable person would dispute that, overall, immigration is a good thing. However, the central government has to have some clear sense of direction, especially in such a small population-base country as Canada.

The remaining European powers are themselves grappling with recent immigration challenges. Both Great Britain and France are struggling with what to do with the failure of recent immigrants to 'integrate.' One thing these countries do have in common, however, is a fair degree of certainty as to what their 'culture' is. Canada has suffered from an inferiority complex for a couple generations now and into a vacuum other forces will flow.

There really are 4 Canadas now: Anglo-Canada, Franco-Canada, Vancouver and Toronto. How our future immigration policies manage those challenges is going to be a serious issue.

 

[kEiThZ]

There really are 4 Canadas now: Anglo-Canada, Franco-Canada, Vancouver and Toronto. How our future immigration policies manage those challenges is going to be a serious issue.

Agreed. Most Torontonians have never ventured far enough outside the GTA to really understand this point.

Until immigrants start spreading out throughout Canada, we are unlikely to really come to grips on this challenge. Many parts of the country are desperate to attract fresh blood, but can't for various reasons. But one of them has to do with the fact that multi-culturalism is really not understood outside the major cities. The rest of Canada is really going for the whole melting pot instead.

If these trends keep up, I fear we will end up getting a rural/urban split that has tinges of native-born/immigrant conflict. I already hear many people say they dont like TO cause its so different than the one they remember from a decade or two ago.