[innsertnamehere]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Dufferin routing had the same over-all travel times and still allows for connections to York U. its 4.2km from Steeles & Dufferin to Steeles West, and 2.7km to Pioneer Village. (god I have that name) The increased speed of the subway probably makes up for the slightly out of the way trip.

 

[Electrify]

OH COME ON!!!

I remember reading that at an information meeting that someone suggested running a line between RHC and York to avoid the subway transfer, and it seems they are doing it with the new route 101. Of course, they just having it follow the current Viva routing.

THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY TO RUN ALONG HIGHWAY 7 INSTEAD OF THAT STUPID DETOUR TO THE PROMENADE!

Let those who are heading down to the Promenade and Thornhill take the Viva and those who want an express trip to York take this new 101 route. I'm willing to bet that such a line would be so popular that it would go from every 30 minutes rush hour to every 5 minutes all day. Certainly would be more likely than seeing some of these Vaughan routes reach TTC levels of frequency, as is assumed.

On that note, if they can make the Keele buses run every 5 minutes, then that subway is screwed. The whole idea behind that line's ridership north of the campus was that YRT and GO buses would funnel into it. If the Keele bus is running every 5 minutes and runs directly into the campus, then most people are going to transfer on to it instead.

 

[Electrify]

I also want to outline why the Promenade detour is so god damn silly, and there should at least be a branch that stays on Highway 7:

1.Yes, you can look at it as a square with two sides going into the urban area of Thornhill and two sides bypassing it, but the thing is that the roads which bypass it are a continuation of the road it stays on. Simply put, it goes out of its way to reach the Promenade.

2. Besides the fact that the terminal is located nearly 200m away from the mall entrance, requiring an engrossing walk through a parking lot/asphalt desert to get to this "trip generator," the fact is that it is not anything special. Those coming from the central corridor are more likely to go to Hillcrest or Upper Canada, and those in Markham are likely to go to Markville or Fairview. The Promenade is hardly the regional destination that YRT would like you to believe. The ONLY exception will be once the subway is built, transit riders in Woodbridge will likely find it worthwhile. Even then, they currently have the 77 bus which goes directly there. AND EVEN THEN with the frequency planned along Jane, Vaughan Mills becomes far more attractive for transit riders.

Those which "must" go to the Promenade could always transfer from the Viva rapid transit to the 77 or 81 local buses.

3. The buses which meet at the terminal hardly operate major lines. Most could be accessed by transferring at Bathurst or Centre anyways. The only one which you couldn't transfer on to from the Viva is the Thornhill-YorkU bus, which one could meet at York University or get to from the 77 - and considering the super-local bendy nature of the line, having to transfer on to it from a local grid route rather than a rapid transit one is hardly the end of the world.

TL;DR: While on paper the Promenade routing may make sense, in reality it is forced and inconvenient.

 

[doady]

Hard to believe YRT is gonna keep throwing money at VIVA even with its crappy ridership. And yet the non-VIVA service keeps getting cut and cut and fares keep going up...

Want 50% cost recovery? Simple: cancel VIVA Orange and Green. Don't bother with Silver. YRT's troubles started with VIVA. Sooner they realize that, the better. That plan is stupid, nothing else to say.

 

[innsertnamehere]

VIVA has half decent ridership, at least Purple, Pink, and Blue. Especially blue. Green is useless in its current iteration but it will be much better after the change. Orange can probably be eliminated after the Yonge extension is built.

 

[DKsan]

I don't think Brampton provided input (and I hope Brampton didn't yet). I don't think splitting the 501 and 501A to separate subway termini is all that smart.

Page 24 of this PDF suggests they will be splitting the route to different termini.

 

[aleesia]

My thoughts:

1. I don't foresee demand for 10-minute service on 22A (assuming 22A and 29+ will alternate). If it serves Seneca, instead of bypassing it, then yes... I definitely see 10-minute service on a restructured 22A from York U to Seneca King. The subway will make Seneca @ King very accessible, and will serve as a shuttle between Seneca @ York and Seneca @ King. Restructuring the 22 by cutting 22A's Yonge section, and cutting it to just Yonge and Bloomington via Seneca @ King will make this route a potential money-maker for YRT, at least on weekdays, like MiWay's 66 for Sheridan College's Davis and HMC campuses. And they can extend it further to Bloomington GO Station, once it is completed.

2. 5-minute service on the 35, which only runs during rush hours? Very intriguing... Actually, the frequencies overall seem to be ambitious. This will make Vaughan's service more frequent than Mississauga's... I really hope they will be able to pull it off...

3. I think Brampton riders prefer 501A instead of a 501. Since Viva Orange will be extended to Highway 50 anyways, I think it's better for BT to cut the 501, and make the 501A as the main branch. And let Viva Orange serve the Vaughan section. The express nature of the 501A and almost all of the riders are going to York U anyways... But I see outrage from students come 2015 when Brampton Transit moves out of the more accessible York Lanes terminal.

4. And yes, the split of Viva Orange is definitely a meh... Better run all buses to Richmond Hill, and if they pull through with these frequencies, transferring will be very convenient. And 77 runs to Finch anyways. It is not really important if a local bus has more riders than a BRT bus as of YRT's current state of abandonment.

 

[Evening]

I guess I kinda assumed that all BT buses would go to the farthest north station but then thought about the 407 routed 501s and changed my assumption to all BT buses going to the 407 station. Buses connecting to subways (IMO) should make the first/shortest connection to speed up commute times and make bus schedules more predictable/reliable.

I sort of agree but connecting the 501A (which is by far the more popular branch) to VMC has the advantage of connecting to VIVA silver and VIVA orange. Though I do see that on the other hand, it looks like alot of routes are converging at Pioneer Village so it might be advantageous to go there too.

 

[Evening]

My thoughts:

3. I think Brampton riders prefer 501A instead of a 501. Since Viva Orange will be extended to Highway 50 anyways, I think it's better for BT to cut the 501, and make the 501A as the main branch. And let Viva Orange serve the Vaughan section. The express nature of the 501A and almost all of the riders are going to York U anyways... But I see outrage from students come 2015 when Brampton Transit moves out of the more accessible York Lanes terminal.

I definitely hope Brampton considers what you're proposing. Though the 501 does get some good ridership, its continuance is a drain on the much more popular 501A. With a frequent and streamlined viva orange to Finch and RHC, it would make sense to eliminate the overlap with viva.

 

[BMO]

I hope so too! I don't think Brampton would be stupid enough to do an unnecessary loop for the 501A to get to Pioneer Village so I think its safe to say they weren't consulted. Though, if TTC doesn't find a way to give York U students a way to ride without a double fare, its likely that Brampton will be pressured to go to Pioneer Village.

On another note, I think it is unwise of them to make the new Dufferin route go to Pioneer Village. Its likely that those passengers are trying to connect to the subway and the new routing will significantly increase their commute time.

Viva orange's branch to Finch seems to have a few twists at Promenade -- I think it would be better to either stay on Centre to increase speed (though I have heard that Clark is more dense).

Finally with viva orange to RHC already existing, it seems redundant to have the 101 use that routing. It should go directly down Highway 7 (maybe they are afraid that such a routing will be too popular and outshine viva?)

The #5 Clark bus is one of the best performing routes in the entire YRT system. This revolves around it's service to the subway, Promenade Mall, Centrepoint Mall, connection to VIVA, numerous high schools (Thornhill, St Elizabeth's, Vaughan SS), two community centres (Garnet & Dufferin) and has some decent portions of density at Yonge, Hilda and Bathurst. This is further compounded by the fact that it is one of the shorter routes in the system.

I think VIVA Orange on Clark makes a lot of sense, you're hitting the densest parts of the 5 route and the parts that generate the most ridership. I think this is pretty much one of the best things they could do for the Orange line if they are going to split it. Going along Centre doesn't really hit any substantial trip generators apart from the Walmart, and places along Yonge (mostly small shops around Centre). Between Promenade and Yonge it's a few private jewish schools, multi-million dollar homes and a church.

As for the 101, I suspect a deal hasn't been hashed out yet between YRT and TTC so the 101 is a fail-safe measure to providing direct service to York U where the VIVA Purple now runs. When the subway starts VIVA will no longer go south on Keel to York U. Oddly, University students are less affected by numbers of transfers because they often don't own a car or can't afford to. So this leads me to believe this line is in case a fare integration for York U students isn't created.

 

[BMO]

OH COME ON!!!

I remember reading that at an information meeting that someone suggested running a line between RHC and York to avoid the subway transfer, and it seems they are doing it with the new route 101. Of course, they just having it follow the current Viva routing.

THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY TO RUN ALONG HIGHWAY 7 INSTEAD OF THAT STUPID DETOUR TO THE PROMENADE!

Let those who are heading down to the Promenade and Thornhill take the Viva and those who want an express trip to York take this new 101 route. I'm willing to bet that such a line would be so popular that it would go from every 30 minutes rush hour to every 5 minutes all day. Certainly would be more likely than seeing some of these Vaughan routes reach TTC levels of frequency, as is assumed.

On that note, if they can make the Keele buses run every 5 minutes, then that subway is screwed. The whole idea behind that line's ridership north of the campus was that YRT and GO buses would funnel into it. If the Keele bus is running every 5 minutes and runs directly into the campus, then most people are going to transfer on to it instead.

It costs more $$ to run a half empty express bus to York U from RHC then to run a local bus that has numerous people boarding and alighting. This is why express routes in YRT cost a special fee. There likely isn't demand for such an express route because the 52 407 GO bus duplicates the service. http://www.yorku.ca/trnsprt/publictransit/gotransit.htm

 

[BMO]

I also want to outline why the Promenade detour is so god damn silly, and there should at least be a branch that stays on Highway 7:

1.Yes, you can look at it as a square with two sides going into the urban area of Thornhill and two sides bypassing it, but the thing is that the roads which bypass it are a continuation of the road it stays on. Simply put, it goes out of its way to reach the Promenade.

2. Besides the fact that the terminal is located nearly 200m away from the mall entrance, requiring an engrossing walk through a parking lot/asphalt desert to get to this "trip generator," the fact is that it is not anything special. Those coming from the central corridor are more likely to go to Hillcrest or Upper Canada, and those in Markham are likely to go to Markville or Fairview. The Promenade is hardly the regional destination that YRT would like you to believe. The ONLY exception will be once the subway is built, transit riders in Woodbridge will likely find it worthwhile. Even then, they currently have the 77 bus which goes directly there. AND EVEN THEN with the frequency planned along Jane, Vaughan Mills becomes far more attractive for transit riders.

Those which "must" go to the Promenade could always transfer from the Viva rapid transit to the 77 or 81 local buses.

3. The buses which meet at the terminal hardly operate major lines. Most could be accessed by transferring at Bathurst or Centre anyways. The only one which you couldn't transfer on to from the Viva is the Thornhill-YorkU bus, which one could meet at York University or get to from the 77 - and considering the super-local bendy nature of the line, having to transfer on to it from a local grid route rather than a rapid transit one is hardly the end of the world.

TL;DR: While on paper the Promenade routing may make sense, in reality it is forced and inconvenient.

The residential density around Promenade mall is quite large. VIVA provides access to RHC and York U for these people. You don't keep a bus route on a road because it is a logical continuation of the route. You plan a route based on density and potential ridership. The entire stretch between RHC and York U has almost zero chance of attracting a substantial ridership based on the extremely sparse and low density, manufacturing and medley of open fields. This is actually the least feasible route for a transit line to go on. This is geared towards an express service, but VIVA is very much a local transit line with extended stop distances. If people are looking for an express route to York, they should be pushing YRT to create an Express route or explore using GO transit. I would expect most people calling for this type of routing are mostly going to York U and very few if any are looking to go anywhere else along Hwy 7 west.

 

[BMO]

Hard to believe YRT is gonna keep throwing money at VIVA even with its crappy ridership. And yet the non-VIVA service keeps getting cut and cut and fares keep going up...

Want 50% cost recovery? Simple: cancel VIVA Orange and Green. Don't bother with Silver. YRT's troubles started with VIVA. Sooner they realize that, the better. That plan is stupid, nothing else to say.

The 90 (which the VIVA Green will replace) is one of the better performing routes. VIVA green when it started was a disaster, this is true. Same with VIVA Orange. I believe these changes will change that. Purple and Blue have really good ridership for a YRT route.

 

[smallspy]

OH COME ON!!!

I remember reading that at an information meeting that someone suggested running a line between RHC and York to avoid the subway transfer, and it seems they are doing it with the new route 101. Of course, they just having it follow the current Viva routing.

THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY TO RUN ALONG HIGHWAY 7 INSTEAD OF THAT STUPID DETOUR TO THE PROMENADE!

Let those who are heading down to the Promenade and Thornhill take the Viva and those who want an express trip to York take this new 101 route. I'm willing to bet that such a line would be so popular that it would go from every 30 minutes rush hour to every 5 minutes all day. Certainly would be more likely than seeing some of these Vaughan routes reach TTC levels of frequency, as is assumed.

Except that Promenade is something like the 4th busiest transfer point on the entire YRT system. It would insane to bypass it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

2. Besides the fact that the terminal is located nearly 200m away from the mall entrance, requiring an engrossing walk through a parking lot/asphalt desert to get to this "trip generator," the fact is that it is not anything special. Those coming from the central corridor are more likely to go to Hillcrest or Upper Canada, and those in Markham are likely to go to Markville or Fairview. The Promenade is hardly the regional destination that YRT would like you to believe. The ONLY exception will be once the subway is built, transit riders in Woodbridge will likely find it worthwhile. Even then, they currently have the 77 bus which goes directly there. AND EVEN THEN with the frequency planned along Jane, Vaughan Mills becomes far more attractive for transit riders.

When I was riding the 77 regularly the vast majority were destined for Finch Station. Once the subway extension is complete I doubt people coming from west of the Vaughan Centre station will have much of a need to go past it if they are looking to board a subway. Sure there is North York Center and Y/E however the Eglinton LRT will create a quick connection between the West and East.