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Northern Light

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York U has long wanted a medical school.........and repeatedly been told 'not yet' by the province...........

A renewed push, with a long list of backers would suggest that something has changed.

On May 20th, York released a presser announcing its intent to propose a new medical school to the province in the months ahead.

Link here: https://yfile.news.yorku.ca/2021/05...pported-by-gta-health-and-government-leaders/

York has given the new 'school' its own web presence:

www.yorku.ca

School of Medicine | York University

York University is moving forward with plans to establish a new School of Medicine, and now with the Government of Ontario’s announcement to support further development and planning for a new school, we are accelerating the pace to new medical doctor programs in the fastest growing region in...
www.yorku.ca www.yorku.ca

I set this up here, as there does yet appear to be an associated Capital Project, but that may be an oversight on my part.
 
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I dont know why in the hell the province has been dragging their feet on building another medical school for such a long time. The need has be evident for years (pre-Covid), and i've heard dozens of stories of students either leaving Canada altogether to go to the U.S to get admissions into med school, or students getting flat out rejected from admission even if they literally have 98% grade point averages because the demand for health sciences and med school is just through the roof.

Unfortunately it has taken a pandemic for government to realize the importance of health care, and this time around I think the push is appropriately timed and will be a successful one.
 
Amare said:
I dont know why in the hell the province has been dragging their feet on building another medical school for such a long time. The need has be evident for years (pre-Covid), and i've heard dozens of stories of students either leaving Canada altogether to go to the U.S to get admissions into med school, or students getting flat out rejected from admission even if they literally have 98% grade point averages because the demand for health sciences and med school is just through the roof.

Unfortunately it's taken a pandemic for government to realize the importance of health care, and this time around I think the push is appropriately timed and will be a successful one.
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Medical school admissions, to existing schools, were actually restricted going back to the Rae gov't ............when they decided that more doctors would be needlessly pricey!

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Problematic logic.

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Based on how low we are in doctor per capita, I would tend to favour 2 new medical schools.

One at York; and another at Waterloo.

Play to the expertise of both institutions.

York U should focus (as it proposes to do) on social/family medicine.

While Waterloo should be on technology-integrated healthcare. Including, but not limited to, AI, remote-monitoring/diagnostics, and simulation-based training.
 
^To be honest I dont even think 2 new medical schools would be enough to handle all the demand, but it would definitely make a significant dent in the problem.

The fact that this issue has been persisting for 25+ years now is a joke in and of itself. Bob Rae didnt help at all and to be fair though, Mike Harris basically eviscerated health care and education in this province so he took us back another 20 years. Doug Ford was on the same path pre-Covid so we keep doing it to ourselves in a way.
 
Modest update on this from the latest York U Board of Governors meeting on March 1st, 2022:

1646679662703.png


From here: https://www.yorku.ca/secretariat/wp-content/uploads/sites/107/2022/02/board-agenda-20220301.pdf ~ p. 180
 
Further to the above, according to an article in Today's Star, the province will be announcing the largest expansion to medical school enrollment in a generation.

The announcement will include funds for a Ryerson Medical School in Brampton, U of T's medical school in Scarborough and Queen's at their Oshawa Lakeridge campus.

Not noted in the article, a new Medical School for York.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/pr...-medical-schools-to-boost-doctor-numbers.html (behind the paywall at time of posting)
 
A small tidbit from the October meeting of York U's Board of Governors:

1664399304107.png


In a separate part of the agenda (Land and Property Committe report) we also have this:

1664400021033.png
 
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Northern Light said:
You cultural types, always proof-reading........... 🤣

(I wish more people would)
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Do we actuslly need a new school, or do we need to properly fund the ones we have, and the graduates that they provide, especially in the fields of family practice. Same for nursing. A small unscientific survey amongst my medical acquaintances suggest no new school is needed - proper funding and adequately funded increased admissions amongst existing schools are.
 
just east of the creek said:
Do we actuslly need a new school, or do we need to properly fund the ones we have, and the graduates that they provide, especially in the fields of family practice. Same for nursing. A small unscientific survey amongst my medical acquaintances suggest no new school is needed - proper funding and adequately funded increased admissions amongst existing schools are.
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Ontario's population has grown by many millions; and its population has aged (necessitating more doctors); (doctors have aged, necessitating more replacements) since the last new medical school was opened (the Northern Ontario School of Medicine).

That was in 2005, so 17 years ago, and it will be close to 20 by the time any of the new medical schools announced are actually taking applications for students.

There hasn't been a new medical school in the Greater Golden Horseshoe in the last 50+ years (* excepting U of T expanding its Med. School offerings at UTM)

So yes, I think we're due for more medical schools.

There are several discrete reasons for this:

1) The need for significantly greater enrollment
2) The need for more teaching hospitals and the associated residence spots, there is a limited functional geographical reach from existing medical schools.
3) In the same vein, their is geographic barrier to attending medical schools, where there are so few.

I'm certainly all in favour of more funding the for the existing school; but I don't think that precludes the need for more.

Personally, I would have liked to see one in Waterloo, as their is no medical school in K-W, no teaching hospitals in K-W (and with that, fewer advanced healthcare services) but also I've long thought that the tech disposition of
Waterloo could have a unique role to play in how medicine is taught and cross-polination of other disciplines there might be quite useful.

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I would add Temerty (U of T's med. school) is among the most highly ranked on the continent, so its not desperate for investment for 'quality'; though some school's w/less endowments may be.
 
Northern Light said:
Ontario's population has grown by many millions; and its population has aged (necessitating more doctors); (doctors have aged, necessitating more replacements) since the last new medical school was opened (the Northern Ontario School of Medicine).

That was in 2005, so 17 years ago, and it will be close to 20 by the time any of the new medical schools announced are actually taking applications for students.

There hasn't been a new medical school in the Greater Golden Horseshoe in the last 50+ years (* excepting U of T expanding its Med. School offerings at UTM)

So yes, I think we're due for more medical schools.

There are several discrete reasons for this:

1) The need for significantly greater enrollment
2) The need for more teaching hospitals and the associated residence spots, there is a limited functional geographical reach from existing medical schools.
3) In the same vein, their is geographic barrier to attending medical schools, where there are so few.

I'm certainly all in favour of more funding the for the existing school; but I don't think that precludes the need for more.

Personally, I would have liked to see one in Waterloo, as their is no medical school in K-W, no teaching hospitals in K-W (and with that, fewer advanced healthcare services) but also I've long thought that the tech disposition of
Waterloo could have a unique role to play in how medicine is taught and cross-polination of other disciplines there might be quite useful.

****

I would add Temerty (U of T's med. school) is among the most highly ranked on the continent, so its not desperate for investment for 'quality'; though some school's w/less endowments may be.
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Fair enough. Your reasoning is valid. However, enrolment and funding have been long issues, not properly addressed. There apparently is unused existing capacity that could be activated in the shorter term. A teaching facility in the KW area would take some time to develop, although the linkages, as they are in Montreal, would seem apparent and useful.

One of my contacts who has worked in the north for many years comments on chronic underfunding, chronic burnout of staff at all levels, and so part of the issue is not just training, but sustaining the trained. Another contact wonders why we are paying such large amounts ongoingly to nursing agencies to supply staff to understaffed hospitals that cannot retain staff due to pay issues - the 1% conversation. There are longstanding structural and service issues in the north. And just perhaps we are drifting much off topic, but as often with these issues, the problems are multi faceted and the solutions as well.

Enjoy your posts and those of others very much, and the conversations that follow.
 
just east of the creek said:
Fair enough. Your reasoning is valid. However, enrolment and funding have been long issues, not properly addressed. There apparently is unused existing capacity that could be activated in the shorter term.
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U of T's capacity is difficult to speak to, though I am connected to that uni, in as much as its my alma mater, I was never in any way shape or form in the medical program and have no first-hand knowledge with which to intelligently comment.

My impression is that there is some additional academic capacity but no additional residence capacity, but even if this is true, there are so many moving parts, its hard to assess the virtue of one choice over another.

i will settle for the realization that there are simply too few doctors, and more are needed, however you get there.

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In the short term, there is little question in my mind, that the 'practical assessment' of those who have foreign medical school credentials and have passed the applicable Canadian exams is an absolutely necessity and an obvious (partial) solution to our challenges in doctor supply.

Practical assessment which exists in 7 provinces, but not Ontario, is a program which places a doctor qualified as per above under supervision of a local, licensed to practice physician for generally about 12 weeks, and if said physician agrees they are practice ready, immediately qualifies then without further retraining or supervision.

Our failure to use this type of assessment (which we used to use, by the way) is glaringly dubious.

just east of the creek said:
A teaching facility in the KW area would take some time to develop, although the linkages, as they are in Montreal, would seem apparent and useful.
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Agreed.

just east of the creek said:
One of my contacts who has worked in the north for many years comments on chronic underfunding, chronic burnout of staff at all levels, and so part of the issue is not just training, but sustaining the trained. Another contact wonders why we are paying such large amounts ongoingly to nursing agencies to supply staff to understaffed hospitals that cannot retain staff due to pay issues - the 1% conversation. There are longstanding structural and service issues in the north. And just perhaps we are drifting much off topic, but as often with these issues, the problems are multi faceted and the solutions as well.
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There are long-standing issues everywhere, but yes, more acutely in remote areas than most. Doctors are not located precisely in balance to demand, so areas that are under-serviced, as the north is, tend to present higher than average workloads with less than average time off.

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It needs to be said though, as discussed in many threads, work loads for many are heavy and pay, most acutely in entry-level positions is poor.

We as a society, in Ontario and Canada have been running on a cheap-labour philosophy for awhile now...... and that is very much coming home to roost.

just east of the creek said:
Enjoy your posts and those of others very much, and the conversations that follow.
Click to expand...

Thank you. As do I.
 
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Without the support from the provincial government, which has announced on Mar 15, a new med school at York is almost dead. Besides, a new med school will be established in Brampton by Toronto Metropolitan University in 2025.
 
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