TOareaFan
Superstar
There is nothing to dispute the notion that governments promise things into the future that they may never actually build/spend on.....but the sense that this is unique to Ford or, even, conservative governments is just silly.
Kyle Campbell
Senior Member
Whoever said it was unique? The liberals and the ndp play this game too, they all do
The loser in this game is always the citizen of Ontario
drum118
Superstar
If Ford paid for the extension of line line 2 to Hurontario and then to Sq One, a few councilors would be jumping over the moon in shear joy.
What good does this do for the city and transit riders to have a stub line on Hurontario when the LRT is going to do the whole thing??
Doing the EA is easy and done in a short time, but building it is a different story. The line would have to be ATO from day one as it will be needed in the 30's-40's when it opens, about 10-20 years after the LRT is up and running if even then.
You only need a stop at Dixie, Hurontario and Sq One, since they are the only stops to have about 2,000 riders/hr when it opens. Sq One will have more. Dundas has a greater chance seeing development like Yonge St since its low density that can be converted to high density compare to the short section of Hurontario. You could make provisions for future stops, but only looking at 7 extra stops at best. Huge cost to carry for stations that may show up 30-50 years down the road.
Doing this screws riders who use Hurontario more than Dundas to the point of what do you do for service south of Dundas and north of Sq One?? Does this mean a rider will have to transfer 2-3 time compare to the 1-2 for the LRT and have to wait longer for a subway than an LRT because of riders loads??
Ford is showing this lack of knowledge about subway vs LRT/BRT as well telling the public get things coming their way if you keep voting me in for the next 2-3 election.
Ford trying to get other systems to have the same cost recovery like TTC would put Mississauga at the top of the list as the most subsidize system in NA.with this white elephant. It would make the current white elephant Sheppard a poster child for cost recovery based on today numbers.
If you going to do a subway for Hurontario, it has to be from West Port Credit Village to Brampton north end and this would please the folks in Brampton who want the tunnel in Brampton, not the surface line. It would also please the folks of Port Credit.
The funny part is I looked at a Sheppard Subway going to Pickering Town Centre and to Sq One in 2006 when doing a master GTA Transit plan when Metrolinx was being born, but it die a year later when I look at thing more closely based on ridership and cost.
What good does this do for the city and transit riders to have a stub line on Hurontario when the LRT is going to do the whole thing??
Doing the EA is easy and done in a short time, but building it is a different story. The line would have to be ATO from day one as it will be needed in the 30's-40's when it opens, about 10-20 years after the LRT is up and running if even then.
You only need a stop at Dixie, Hurontario and Sq One, since they are the only stops to have about 2,000 riders/hr when it opens. Sq One will have more. Dundas has a greater chance seeing development like Yonge St since its low density that can be converted to high density compare to the short section of Hurontario. You could make provisions for future stops, but only looking at 7 extra stops at best. Huge cost to carry for stations that may show up 30-50 years down the road.
Doing this screws riders who use Hurontario more than Dundas to the point of what do you do for service south of Dundas and north of Sq One?? Does this mean a rider will have to transfer 2-3 time compare to the 1-2 for the LRT and have to wait longer for a subway than an LRT because of riders loads??
Ford is showing this lack of knowledge about subway vs LRT/BRT as well telling the public get things coming their way if you keep voting me in for the next 2-3 election.
Ford trying to get other systems to have the same cost recovery like TTC would put Mississauga at the top of the list as the most subsidize system in NA.with this white elephant. It would make the current white elephant Sheppard a poster child for cost recovery based on today numbers.
If you going to do a subway for Hurontario, it has to be from West Port Credit Village to Brampton north end and this would please the folks in Brampton who want the tunnel in Brampton, not the surface line. It would also please the folks of Port Credit.
The funny part is I looked at a Sheppard Subway going to Pickering Town Centre and to Sq One in 2006 when doing a master GTA Transit plan when Metrolinx was being born, but it die a year later when I look at thing more closely based on ridership and cost.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I haven't thought about it much, but maybe BRT on Hurontario is the solution.
BRT goes from Port Credit to Sq.1.
Dundas BRT goes from last TTC stop (Kipling or Honeydale) to UofT M. A branch would go to Sq. 1.
Autonomous Buses are not that far away, so the operating cost argument is starting to lose strength. Although some find the ride on rail smoother, this is offset by the convenience of buses that are easier to interline.
BRT goes from Port Credit to Sq.1.
Dundas BRT goes from last TTC stop (Kipling or Honeydale) to UofT M. A branch would go to Sq. 1.
Autonomous Buses are not that far away, so the operating cost argument is starting to lose strength. Although some find the ride on rail smoother, this is offset by the convenience of buses that are easier to interline.
aquateam
Active Member
What is your opinion about potentially replacing Hurontario LRT with Hurontario elevated ICTS?
drum118
Superstar
An elevated line was an option back in 2003 in my first report, as well a surface line. It will be more costly than an LRT, and you got to deal with a loop that wasn't in any of my plans and recommendation from day one. I left open the various options that could be use for an elevated line.What is your opinion about potentially replacing Hurontario LRT with Hurontario elevated ICTS?
An BRT on Hurontario is past its due date and what coming down the road over the next 20 years. If you are doing an BRT, only good north of Dundas, but could start at the Queensway since ridership falls off south the Queensway today and why the split of buses there as well longer headway to Port Credit.
Because of lack of ridership west of Hurontario, an BRT is the best option for Dundas until development takes place east of Hurontario. Dundas E has the ability to out strip Hurontario 2-3 times if done right and why a subway could go there in the future as part of line 2. You don't need a true BRT west of Hurontario to Burlington for a long time, especially in Halton.
Allandale25
Superstar
Can you post a copy of it here?
drum118
Superstar
When every I can find it, as the ones on HD and CD are corrupt for some reason. Its part of a number I need to find and put them back on the HD.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I don't know if I understand this.
Ridership on Hurontario is so low that BRT is not warranted south of Queensway - but then LRT is ok for this stretch.?
BurlOak
Senior Member
I haven't looked at the numbers for quite a while, but I somehow have a feeling that Hurontario LRT ridership would be half of what Finch LRT might be.What is your opinion about potentially replacing Hurontario LRT with Hurontario elevated ICTS?
drum118
Superstar
My comment was related to subway, more than BRT. Ridership is poor south of North Service Rd and will never see any density on the type for the area, other than Port Credit Station. Even then, its low.
If a Dundas subway made its way to Hurontario, it has to go north to Sq One, requiring something to run from Port Credit to Sq One, let alone to Brampton. Unless Brampton takes over the Sq One North route, it going to be a mix bag for riders to travel Hurontario.
If you think taking the subway to Brampton to help the corridor, it will be a killer on the pocket books for over a 100 years as there, no density to support the line every in anyone life time here.
The best option is to have an LRT as plan, even thought ridership will be low south of Dundas to maintain the single seat ride.
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KevinT
Senior Member
Not low on the whole route, low on that stretch. But if you built it without including that stretch you'd just be making another Shephard stubway. Hopefully that's a mistake that won't be repeated here.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
"Chicken or egg" situation. I wouldn't want to use a bus (or BRT), but would use a light rail (LRT) to get to Square One from Port Credit. If I have to transfer to continue a trip north of Queensway, think that most wouldn't want to do so.
drum118
Superstar
I have seen and been on crush load buses on 103 starting at Dundas and starts to fall off at Derry to the point we leave riders to wait for the next bus.
The last data numbers I have that are about 5 years ago, it was almost a 50-50 split at Sq One for riders staying on or getting off in both direction. That has change with Brampton 502 doing the north section these days and no idea how many are transferring from/to 19 to/from 502.
With all the new development for residential and industries north of Sq One, the north section is and will see more ridership than the south for sometime. The Eglinton area will see 5 time more ridership than it does to day, if not more as new development takes place there. There are current 13 towers plan and underway at this time, with more to come. Between Central Parkway and Sq One, 6 towers plan, with 1 yet to start. 2 towers south of Dundas are plan.
BurlOak
Senior Member
With bus, it's easier to interline. some routes go from Sq.1 to Port Credit, some to B-D subway, some to UTM.
With LRT, people who go from Sq.1 to Port Credit (which everyone here admits is small) can have a 1 trip ride, but people who go from Sq.1 to B-D subway, or UTM (which is a much larger number), will just drive.