[TKTKTK]

Let's put it this way: if there truly were a comparable example to Tokyo's in Toronto, it wouldn't be the Gardiner. It'd be if the Spadina Expressway were completed as an elevated road (as opposed to a Decarie-style trench) along present-day Spadina Avenue--in which case, "(re)urbanization" could proceed quite rationally.

In a similar spirit, funny how various elevated rapid transit lines in New York, Paris etc haven't been mentioned. But again; it's not just a matter of *what* it is, but of *where* it is...

Is the issue because of the rail embankment on one side making it difficult to reproduce, exactly, what's shown in the Tokyo example (large buildings on either side, plus under)? Or is there a reason this area can't urbanize, from scratch, around the Gardiner?

 

[xstatik]

Hmmm. Spend $300 million (Which will probably balloon to $1BILLION knowing how the drunken spenders at City Hall work) to make it HARDER to get around the city!!!!
I don't think so.
The way that this city is going is really going to help all the businesses in 905 (bars, restaurants, shopping etc) as no one will go downtown because of the increased hassle.
Plus, even though the Gardiner goes, we still have a larger barrier to the lake that NO ONE SEEMS TO MENTION IN THE MEDIA which is the RAIL LINES! Let me guess, are we going to remove the rail lines too to make it impossible to get to the city. Walking under two pillars is not a problem for getting to the lake, it's the dark, dingy, dirty tunnel under the tracks full of homeless bums that make it scary to get to the lake.
We need a REGIME CHANGE in city hall fast before they completely destroy the city!!!

 

[jmacmillan]

I'm sure that any Eglinton subway rumours are merely people calling the proposed 10km of tunnelled streetcar a subway.

Streetcars (LRT's) work well in San Francisco, operating on the surface and occasionally in a tunnel. Edmonton's LRT also does this.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Streetcars (LRT's) work well in San Francisco, operating on the surface and occasionally in a tunnel. Edmonton's LRT also does this.

So?

 

[waterloowarrior]

Toronto is literally the only entity in the GTA that ignored the existing backbone of their transit system, and instead put feeder routes on the top of their wish list. York Region's primary goal is to improve transit on the Yonge and Highway 7 corridors. Peel municipalities are pushing for high order transit on Hurontario. Even Durham Region wanted in on improved east-west connections to the rest of the GTA along the 401 and Lakeshore GO lines.

And what about Toronto? The Yonge subway was over crowded 20 years ago, but who cares! Let's give it even more feeder routes. The Sheppard subway could become the transit backbone of the northern suburbs, but who cares! Let's make it as hard as possible to use by forcing as many transfers as possible. The Bloor subway is the only way to travel across the city and is packed, but who cares! It's already there, so why build an alternative along Queen or Eglinton.

Ya, but only if his union cronies got the contract.

they didn't ignore the entire line, they are doing some big upgrades to have automatic train control, which will help increase frequencies (not sure what else it does) and allow measures that reduce delays (ie platform screens)

 

[scarberiankhatru]

they didn't ignore the entire line, they are doing some big upgrades to have automatic train control, which will help increase frequencies (not sure what else it does) and allow measures that reduce delays (ie platform screens)

No matter how much is spent on automatic train control, longer trains, GO trains, LRT, feeder routes, etc., etc., it doesn't change the fact that the transit backbone in the city remains unchanged...a single downtown subway line. But, of course, we're nuts to think maybe this YUS backbone should be added to, especially given MoveOntario/Metrolinx billion$.

 

[carewser]

I suppose, at the very least, this will be a test case to estimate the effects of bringing down the entire thing.

That would be traffic suicide, unless Torontonians like traffic backed up worse than it is now and even more smog.

 

[gei]

I have a feeling that this teardown will accomplish virtually nothing... besides inconvieniencing some commuters.

 

[indense]

Is the issue because of the rail embankment on one side making it difficult to reproduce, exactly, what's shown in the Tokyo example (large buildings on either side, plus under)? Or is there a reason this can't area can't urbanize, from scratch, around the Gardiner?

How can you build under the Gardiner when there is already a road running parallel underneath?

This is a closer Tokyo example:

No buildings underneath. People use elevated crosswalks to cross. It's not pleasant though.

 

[waterloowarrior]

No matter how much is spent on automatic train control, longer trains, GO trains, LRT, feeder routes, etc., etc., it doesn't change the fact that the transit backbone in the city remains unchanged...a single downtown subway line. But, of course, we're nuts to think maybe this YUS backbone should be added to, especially given MoveOntario/Metrolinx billion$.

I agree, but I'm just saying that Chuck can't say they just ignored the entire line, since the automation still is a significant upgrade to it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I agree, but I'm just saying that Chuck can't say they just ignored the entire line, since the automation still is a significant upgrade to it.

He didn't say they're ignoring the line, he said they're ignoring the backbone...the subway network. The two YUS extensions alone, even without all the proposed streetcar feeder lines, will completely swamp any technical improvements like automatic train control.

 

[TKTKTK]

How can you build under the Gardiner when there is already a road running parallel underneath?

Well, if the point is to get rid of a road so that we can make the area better for pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers alike - then why not get rid of some of the capacity of the Lake Shore under the Gardiner? Dedicate it to either new construction, or to a covered promenade.

From Jarvis to nearly Parliament, Lake Shore eastbound doesn't even run under the Gardiner - it runs beside.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Runs beside?

Well, if the point is to get rid of a road so that we can make the area better for pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers alike - then why not get rid of some of the capacity of the Lake Shore under the Gardiner? Dedicate it to either new construction, or to a covered promenade.

From Jarvis to nearly Parliament, Lake Shore eastbound doesn't even run under the Gardiner - it runs beside.

Para 1: Because the Gardiner, with its rusted out undercarriage and sun-blocking bulk, is a much crappier road than Lake Shore. The 'covered promenade' concept is tried as a pedestrian tunnel to the ACC under the tracks, and doesn't work at all, IMO.

Para 2: Eastbound only. Westbound is under the Gardiner. And only eastbound to accommodate the on ramp from Lake Shore to Gardiner (fabulously useful in cutting my travel time back from the LCBO to the backyard patio by a solid 35 secs!)

TKTKTK -- you can't live down here and think that the Gardiner should stay up. I have some sympathy for commuters, but it's easy for me to ask you to sacrifice so I can have a much nicer waterfront... much like I was happy to have the Beachers sacrifice when the Leslie stub came down. The Beach grumblers quickly found that they were just as happy with a reconfigured route. Will commuters? We'll see -- but I bet it'll be not as bad as you fear.

Cheers.

 

[Lone Primate]

Aw, man. This is so fukt. Vaughn's just going to win this in a cakewalk. Boys, are any of you old enough to remember when half the banks and insurance companies and other corporate headquarters that currently reside downtown showed up here from Montreal thirty years ago when their apostrophes came under threat from Bill 101? Now do you honestly think that companies that hauled ass (and workforces) down the 401 are above moving twenty miles north if you make it next to impossible for their workers to get downtown in time to do a day's work, and still have time for a life in a house at some compromise location in the burbs somewhere halfway between their job and that of their spouse? Let me put a fine point on it for you: every time you make it HARDER for people to get in and out of a place, YOU KILL OFF JOBS THERE. I'm not saying build the Spadina or 16-lane Yonge Street... but stop acting like rubbishing our existing infrastructure is a good idea. It isn't. It's the smug NIMBYism of a bunch of hothouse flowers who can't see past their own petals and don't realize just how scarce the sun, rain, and fertilizer could become.

Do you remember that scene in Hannibal where Lector is feeding Krendler bits of his own brain and Krendler's babbling about how good it smells? Reading the comments here brings that right back to me.

 

[Lone Primate]

The thing that's funniest of all is that we're supposed to tear down the five-story-high Gardiner, which "blocks access to the lakeshore"... what access to the lakeshore? Pardon me, has any one of you seen Lake Ontario lately without being within seventeen feet of it? The last I looked, our vaunted "lakeshore" was a five-mile curtain of condominium steel and glass. Well, I suppose those poor souls really shouldn't have to look at the ugliness of people who don't live there moving back and forth on the Gardiner, spoiling the view of the lake that they're denying the rest of us in the first place.

Never mind tearing down the Gardiner. If you want the lakeshore back, tear down the bloody condos. Nothing south of Front Street.