[TOareaFan]

A seat licence is not the same thing as a ticket. A seat licence is upfront money for the priveledge of buying tickets. It would be a huge lump sum payment. So rather than accumulating interest on an $800M loan, the owners would be accumulating interest on an $800M deposit as the stadium was being built.

This is what they were doing for the potential Hamilton hockey team. The money you put down didn't cover any tickets. The tickets would be extra.

If you are worried about the team being profitable on top of that because of the expenses that you list, there are a lot of revenue streams that you also left out. Each team in the NFL gets a share of the network TV money. That is over $85 million dollars per team per year. There are, of course, tickets to the games. There is all the concession money from the $10 beer. There is merchandise money, stadium naming rights, corporate sponsorship, etc.

One thing that I'm hoping they don't make any money on would be parking. That depends on where the stadium goes of course.

As far as operating costs go, the league has a salary cap so the only unforseen costs would probably come from a drastic drop in the dollar.

Some rambling thoughts on this (and the other pages of this thread that I have just caught up on).

The problem with the $10k per seat X 80,000 seats is that there has never been a stadium built where every seat carried a license. A more likely scenario would be no more than 20,000 (ie the best 25% of seats) carrying a license that would vary from, say, $10k - $20k for an average of around $15k.

So seat licenses would, at most, contribute around $300 million to the capital cost of the stadium. Add in the sale of ten year leases on luxury boxes (say 200 of those at an average of $500k {cause I can do the math easier with round numbers}) then you have another $100 million.

So the sale of premium seating and boxes brings in a total of $400 million. Someone else here said that they had knowledge of the bid and that the $1.77B included $700 million for the stadium.....

....so, perhaps, the plan is to build a stadium that costs $700 million with a pre-agreement to sell it for that amount to Rogers/Tannenbaum/NFLToronto and they would, in turn, sell their seat licenses and boxes and end up with ownership of the stadium with debt on it of $300 million.

Or something like that.

As for the suggestion earlier that SkyDome should host track...it just can't...there is no room for a track and it is the wrong shape (more circular than ovalish).

What always bothers me about things like this is the level of political skullduggery and misinformation we seem to go through to do these things.....in the end I think it will be the undoing of this bid.

So we are calling it the Golden Horseshoe Bid to appease the other communities involved.....yet (secretly, behind closed doors, with our fingers crossed) we are saying "their really for Toronto and you will get your new stadium)......we say things like "maybe spreading out the bid will improve GO transit across the region".....yet we are targetting any major events outside of Toronto in Hamilton....which already has pretty good transit links via the Lakeshore line that runs every day.....do we really think they will bring every day, two way transit to Brampton so that the massive amounts of people who want to see handball at the Powerade Centre can take the train to within a 10 minute bus ride of the event?.

If this really is a Toronto bid, and the Province sees fit to underwrite it....then call it that and explain to us why you think so....don't mislead us with crap.

I will probably think of more but that is it for now.

 

[dowlingm]

A lot of major games spread stuff around these days. Look at Olympic soccer games in Tianjin - linked by a high speed railway of course - and the equestrian events are in Hong Kong - 2000km away, about the same distance as Regina!

 

[TOareaFan]

A lot of major games spread stuff around these days. Look at Olympic soccer games in Tianjin - linked by a high speed railway of course - and the equestrian events are in Hong Kong - 2000km away, about the same distance as Regina!

You are right...the nature of soccer tournaments within games (needing multiple large stadia) means that the preliminary games are played away from the main venue (when Montreal hosted the Olympics at least one soccer match was held at Varsity Stadium...maybe more than one).

It is made a lot easier in a place like China which has the ability/will/desire to build high speed rail links (I understand this one only opened days before the opening ceremonies).

As for the equestrian events...didn't that have something to do with rules/regulations about quarantining animals in mainland China? I thought I read something about that back when they won the bid.

So it is common to farm out the odd event.....but there always is (and has to be) a core/spine location.

 

[afransen]

A lot of major games spread stuff around these days. Look at Olympic soccer games in Tianjin - linked by a high speed railway of course - and the equestrian events are in Hong Kong - 2000km away, about the same distance as Regina!

Soccer: You tend to need larger stadia, and it's not unusual for the qualifying matches or the tournament matches to be spread out.

Equestrian: it's unusual but necessary for these events to be so far away. Apparently horses have more sensitive pulmonary systems than humans, and would thus be more likely to suffer respiratory infections and possibly die if subjected to the smog in Beijing.

Remember, Beijing wasn't selected for the strength of its venue plan. One of the major selling points of Toronto's bid is that the venues were quite close together, avoiding the kinds of disasters like in Atlanta where athletes were late to events because their bus was late or stuck in traffic. Toronto can never rely on sentimental factors to win it an Olympics, so its technical bid will have be top-notch. A lot of bid committees since the 2008 selection have copied our bid plan (notably Chicago in many respects), so we'll have to step it up for our next go.

 

[jn_12]

nice posts TOareaFan and afransen. It's nice to hear from people who actually understand sports and its background when it comes to these types of chats.

I think for any games to be successful it needs to be centralized. If it's spread out you will lose a number of key aspects. First, any tourist dollars will be spread thin. If you have people spending two hours of their day travelling between their hotel and the venue, you're losing out on 2 hours of consumerism.

Second, spreading the games out between cities will cause momentum to be lost, because something big that happens in Place A, probably won't be as important in Place B. If there's still buzz at a venue/area, it gets people excited and those tend to be the people you want at your games. Will a record setting performance in Toronto matter in Niagara? Maybe a bit, but you'd gain more momentum if things were more focused.

Third, you have to think of the city as a brand. If the end goal is to get a larger event (the Olympics, let's say) then to say this is a Golden Horseshoe bid won't give the city enough international recognition. It'd be the equivalent of saying a games were in "Ile-de-France" instead of Paris. Why hide the city? It doesn't seem like anything more than politics. GTA cities should be glad to have an engine like Toronto that it can latch onto, and there's no reason they should feel like they'd be missing out if it was a Toronto games rather than a GH games. The trickle down would be noticeable over time, I think.

Fourth, in terms of cost, it seems like it would only make sense to focus on one area. Labour, supplies, materials, and infrastructure would be easier to manage and would be utilized far more efficiently in a centralized location rather than spread out throughout the region. I think we all agree that some of these cities would benefit from having some additional infrastructure, but just how important would it be for Brampton to have a velodrome? Simply having buildings scattered throughout the region doesn't mean anything if there isn't a greater plan for athletics. Will we create Centres of Excellence? If that's the plan, are they sustainable in the suburbs?

I'm just worried we're spending a lot of money on something that won't get us the most bang for our buck. I'd rather see the government contribute an extra 100million and use that money to create athletics infrastructure throughout Ontario and rather than have a great venue per city, invest in grass roots playing fields and arenas. I feel as though one Games building in each city isn't going to make the difference, and what we need is to return to the spirit we had in the 60s when we invested in playing fields and arenas that weren't spectacular but at least gave us much of what we have now.

Finally, I wonder if $700million for a stadium is a bit much and perhaps we're over-estimating the expected attendance and interest in the games (especially if we're having a decentralized games). Unless the plan is to get Rogers to buy it for a potential NFL team, I have trouble putting these numbers together in a realistic fashion. Considering BMO Field was around 60million to build, how great is this stadium going to be for 10 times that? Well, to put it in perspective, the Indianapolis Colts are building their new stadium for $650million, Athens' Olympic Stadium was renovated for $400million and Sydney's was built for around $700million. So that's quite the investment for a 2nd tier sporting event.

 

[TOareaFan]

Finally, I wonder if $700million for a stadium is a bit much and perhaps we're over-estimating the expected attendance and interest in the games (especially if we're having a decentralized games). Unless the plan is to get Rogers to buy it for a potential NFL team, I have trouble putting these numbers together in a realistic fashion. Considering BMO Field was around 60million to build, how great is this stadium going to be for 10 times that? Well, to put it in perspective, the Indianapolis Colts are building their new stadium for $650million, Athens' Olympic Stadium was renovated for $400million and Sydney's was built for around $700million. So that's quite the investment for a 2nd tier sporting event.

These days, sadly, $700 million for a top class large stadium is not outrageous.

Currently under construction in Dallas is a new stadium for the Cowboys.....holding 80k (with room for another 20k for Super Bowls) the cost is coming in at over $1 billion......

.....the new Wembley cost about 800 million pounds and seats 90k.....

.....New Giants Stadium is expected to cost $1.6 billion.

Now, just because those cost that much does not mean we need to spend that much but I think it is indicative of what top class stadia cost today.

I think the plan will be to build a first class stadium......and have a Rogers/Tannenbaum/NFL exit strategy......seat licensing.

Don't think of it as overspending for the PanAms but, rather, building a SuperBowl ready (yes that means it will have some sort of retractable roof) stadium....so if the new stadium brought a PanAm games and a potential Super Bowl....would that be enough attention for the doubters?

 

[jn_12]

I haven't heard anything about a potential super bowl, and I think there are issues with that actually happening without an NFL team in place. Mostly, my issue with it has to do with TV rights/money, and its the primary reason why Toronto doesn't have a team in the first place. If we can get an NFL team and its a top-notch stadium that is capable of hosting a super bowl and would be of the quality of an olympic stadium, then great. But it seems like it all hinges on Toronto getting a team. The only way it happens is when Ralph Wilson passes, and if let's say Rogers/Tannebaum can't win the auction for the team, we're stuck.

If we can't be certain, I'd rather see something smaller that could be expanded.

 

[TOareaFan]

I haven't heard anything about a potential super bowl, and I think there are issues with that actually happening without an NFL team in place.

Just to be clear, my mention of a Super Bowl was not something I heard but rather my suggestion as to why you might spend $700 million (as suggested) on a PanAm games stadium.

Of course, we would only get a SB if we had an NFL team.....if there is no deal with Rogers/Tannenbaum/NFL to purchase the PanAm stadium after the games...I agree with the sentiment that $700 mil is way to much for a stadium.

The only way it happens is when Ralph Wilson passes, and if let's say Rogers/Tannebaum can't win the auction for the team, we're stuck.

Not sure why people keep saying that. NFL teams do become available on ocassion (there is talk that the Rams now want out of St. Louis...as an example).......the Bills are the most likely but they are not the only option.....there is even talk of a 4 city expansion at some point (the theory I heard was the NFL might expand to allow LA, Toronto, Mexico City and a city TBD....the expansion would be announced at the same time but take in 2 teams one year and 2 more 2 years later).

Imagine.....NFL announces expansion.....we get in with the team starting play in 2015.....new stadium gets built for PanAms.......games are held in June/July.......stadium gets handed back to NFL team in August.....some prep work is done and voila...you have the NFL in Toronto.

After yesterday, I do not want the NFL at SkyDome.....who is this league that makes a city this size close important streets like Bremner in the morning rush hour more than 12 hours prior to their little exhibition game....stick them in a field in north pickering or something!

 

[samsonyuen]

From: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080815.wmcguinty15/BNStory/National/home
___________________

McGuinty's PanAm pitch fails to win votes
2015 games would be reason to build 'sorely needed' high-performance facilities

DAWN WALTON

From Friday's Globe and Mail

August 15, 2008 at 4:30 AM EDT

BEIJING — Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty schmoozed international sport officials in Beijing yesterday to underline his government's support for Toronto's bid to play host to the 2015 Pan American Games, but he failed to lock in any votes.

Dozens of representatives of the Pan American Sports Organization were wined and dined at Canada Olympic House, not far from Beijing's main Olympic plaza.

"I had an extraordinarily warm reception," Mr. McGuinty told reporters later. "Canada has a very strong brand in the international community so I discovered there's a lot of support for us. There's more work to be done obviously."

The PanAm Games, convened every four years, come with a projected price tag of $1.77-billion.

That amount would be split evenly among the province, Ottawa and the municipalities, which would play host to events with the help of sponsors.

The formal bid, which officials are racing to submit in October, will build on Toronto's experience lobbying, albeit unsuccessfully, for two previous Olympic Summer Games.

If Toronto wins next summer's vote to play host in 2015, Mr. McGuinty and other Canadian sport officials said yesterday it would be a boon for athletes.

"Facilities are sorely needed by our summer sports," said Lou Ragagnin, chief operation officer with the Canadian Olympic Committee.

He pointed to a lack of high-performance facilities including pools and velodromes for cycling, issues that would be rectified with a flurry of construction of new infrastructure if the PanAm Games go to Toronto.

Despite the upbeat tone, those gathered in Canada's home away from home in Beijing tried to put on a brave face amid this country's Olympic medal drought. Officials, however, played down the concern.

"It's a record that has gone over the radio before," said Mike Chambers, president of the Canadian Olympic Committee.

"It's something that we sort of live with in Canada because of the nature of the sports that we generally excel at - they're second-week sports - so it's always frustrating for those who are watching whether back in Canada or here for the Games to see us not winning as many medals as we would like in the first week."

Mr. McGuinty rattled off the tally of Canadian records and personal bests that have been achieved so far in Beijing to give sports fans some perspective.

"We are getting better," he added.

"So is the rest of the world. We've got to keep reaching higher."

Chris Rudge, the CEO of the COC, confessed there has been some disappointment in the pool at the Olympics, but he suggested grabbing the PanAm Games could help Canadian athletes improve on the world stage.

"I thought we might get some medals, yet we did break 18 Canadian records. It shows you the kind of challenges we're facing," he said. "It's why we keep pushing for more investment in sport and why the Pan American bid is so important."

Other cities seeking to host the 2015 Pan American Games include Lima, Peru; Bogota, Colombia; and Caracas, Venezuela.

With a report from James Christie in Beijing

 

[TOareaFan]

From: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080815.wmcguinty15/BNStory/National/home
___________________


Despite the upbeat tone, those gathered in Canada's home away from home in Beijing tried to put on a brave face amid this country's Olympic medal drought. Officials, however, played down the concern.

"It's a record that has gone over the radio before," said Mike Chambers, president of the Canadian Olympic Committee.

"It's something that we sort of live with in Canada because of the nature of the sports that we generally excel at - they're second-week sports - so it's always frustrating for those who are watching whether back in Canada or here for the Games to see us not winning as many medals as we would like in the first week."

Really, I thought we were to expect medals from our swimmers and divers....pretty sure we were confident of that......seems to me they competed in week 1.

From: Mr. McGuinty rattled off the tally ...od justification for failure at the Olympics!

 

[jn_12]

Just to be clear, my mention of a Super Bowl was not something I heard but rather my suggestion as to why you might spend $700 million (as suggested) on a PanAm games stadium.

Of course, we would only get a SB if we had an NFL team.....if there is no deal with Rogers/Tannenbaum/NFL to purchase the PanAm stadium after the games...I agree with the sentiment that $700 mil is way to much for a stadium.



Not sure why people keep saying that. NFL teams do become available on ocassion (there is talk that the Rams now want out of St. Louis...as an example).......the Bills are the most likely but they are not the only option.....there is even talk of a 4 city expansion at some point (the theory I heard was the NFL might expand to allow LA, Toronto, Mexico City and a city TBD....the expansion would be announced at the same time but take in 2 teams one year and 2 more 2 years later).

Imagine.....NFL announces expansion.....we get in with the team starting play in 2015.....new stadium gets built for PanAms.......games are held in June/July.......stadium gets handed back to NFL team in August.....some prep work is done and voila...you have the NFL in Toronto.

After yesterday, I do not want the NFL at SkyDome.....who is this league that makes a city this size close important streets like Bremner in the morning rush hour more than 12 hours prior to their little exhibition game....stick them in a field in north pickering or something!

Good points. 7 years is a long way from today, so its hard to say what will happen and what kind of status some teams will have between now and then. If the 90s were any indication we could see some teams moving (Jacksonville seems to be having a lot of trouble recently as well), LA, Toronto or Mexico City would all be considered. LA would be tops on the list due to TV issues though. However, I also can't picture the NFL expanding beyond its current size. 32 teams seems to be the max for sustainability in North America, and I just don't see what they would gain from going bigger (since most of the NFL's financial success is TV based revenue). The NFL is such a different beast and and I don't think they're concerned with being an international entity, so its hard not to be skeptical.

 

[TOareaFan]

Good points. 7 years is a long way from today, so its hard to say what will happen and what kind of status some teams will have between now and then. If the 90s were any indication we could see some teams moving (Jacksonville seems to be having a lot of trouble recently as well), LA, Toronto or Mexico City would all be considered. LA would be tops on the list due to TV issues though.

Actually, TV reasons might be what consistantly holds LA back from rejoining the league. Both, the Raiders and the Rams had trouble selling out their stadiums (in the Rams case it was because it was too big....in the Raiders case too far from Los Angeles proper) so their games were, often, blacked out in the home market (can't recall the exact details, but the NFL has a rule that if a team's home game is not sold out within a certain amount of time {48 hours?} of kick off, games are blacked out in that market). So the NFL was often "off the air" in the second largest market in the US because they had two teams that both needed to sell out to allow airing of games. Since the LA market became "NFL free" they have been able to air whatever games they want in that market....increasing the value of the tv contract.

Now, for other reasons, the NFL does want back into LA but they will do so only with a stadium that is the right size in the right location to ensure it is always sold out and does not affect the airing of games into that market.

However, I also can't picture the NFL expanding beyond its current size. 32 teams seems to be the max for sustainability in North America, and I just don't see what they would gain from going bigger (since most of the NFL's financial success is TV based revenue).

Well, adding teams in markets certainly won't devalue their tv revenue. As long as the new teams increased the tv revenue enough to cover their own share (ie. the existing teams did not see a decrease in TV revenue per team) then I think the owners might see some value in the $2.5B, or so, in expansion fees that new teams bring. When a team gets sold/moved one owner gets rich...when the league expands, they all get a bit wealthier!!

The NFL's talent source (US colleges) is such that sustaining another 4 teams is a no-brainer...that is why every 5 years or so someone comes up with a rival league plan (the UFL is next up).

The NFL is such a different beast and and I don't think they're concerned with being an international entity, so its hard not to be skeptical.

Well, they are going about showing that in a funny sorta way.....they are spending a lot of time effort and money taking travelling road shows all around the world?

 

[Mystic Point]

Hopefully Toronto will not be awarded the d-class PAN AM GAMES. But, if it were, we'd have to set aside some money to erect walls to block off Yonge Street, so the tourists wouldn't be exposed to the greatest eye-sore in the city.

 

[Whoaccio]

City's self-esteem at stake in Games bid
11/09/2008
Christopher Hume"

It's not whether you win or lose that counts, but where you play the game.

Toronto's latest attempt to host a major international sporting event was officially kicked off yesterday by Premier Dalton McGuinty and former premier David Peterson, who will chair the 2015 Pan American Games bid.

Like those other games, the Pan Am shindig happens every four years. They come complete with 7,500 athletes from 42 countries and can be expected to generate up to $2 billion in economic activity.

If it all sounds vaguely familiar, you're right – we have tried for this sort of thing before, though without success. The last major sports tournament held in these parts came in 1930, when the British Empire Games were held in Hamilton.

Our highest-profile bid, for the Olympics just held in Beijing, went nowhere. By all accounts, Toronto never had a chance. And to be honest, it was probably just as well. The main result of the failed effort is Waterfront Toronto, the underfunded, under-empowered, underappreciated agency now struggling to revitalize the old harbour lands.

Then last year, Toronto, Ottawa and Queen's Park thought it might be worth going for the 2015 World's Fair. But they couldn't get their act together to submit a bid to hold it in Toronto; they simply missed the deadline. Milan eventually won the competition and already the Italian government has committed 1.5 billion euros to the expo.

That money will be spent in Milan preparing for the fair, but in the process, the city will be transformed.

That is every bidding city's hope, of course. Some have done better than others; Turin and Barcelona, for example, are generally considered to have made better use of the Olympics than Montreal or Moscow.

The funds that flowed were used to build public transit and housing as well as sports facilities

For Toronto, however, the issue of winning such a bid has also become a source of civic anxiety. Pretty soon we'll be the only major city in Canada that has not hosted the Games.

As McGuinty pointed out, "there's an important psychological dimension to this."

He's right: Toronto's need for approval is directly proportional to the degree to which it feels itself ignored.

That's all about to change, Peterson insists.

"We're late getting into this," he admits, "but our ambition is to be the best ever. It will be an opportunity to display ourselves to the world. First, we've got to get community support."

As the former premier says: "It's close to a $2 billion operation. We're looking at $1 billion of infrastructure. There's a massive sports deficit in Ontario. I'm putting together a group that will work out the vision."

Peterson says the Pan Am Games would also attract 250,000 tourists to the Greater Toronto Area. Events would be spread across the region, from St. Catharines to Toronto and beyond.

"The province is the main driver," he says, "but it will be called the Toronto Bid. In fact, it's a GTA bid – at least 12 municipalities are involved."

Peterson also talks about "wrapping a major cultural festival around the games." He says he wants all the big cultural institutions to play a role, too.

In the meantime, Peterson and his team-to-be must convince the participating nations to choose Toronto over its rivals, Bogota, Lima and Caracas.

The first Pan Am meeting will be held in Acapulco in three weeks.

"Toronto needs a winner," Peterson argues, "something we can get excited about. But this is not, I repeat, not the Olympics. We've got to be prudent with money. We're not going to build a Bird's Nest."

Now that really would have been something to get excited about.

Personally, I am a bit offended that we are doing this as a region. Hamilton, Mississauga or any number of individual areas could easily afford to hold this event by itself. We will end up with a pool in St. Catherines, a velodrome in Milton and a track in Pickering. Then, we will pat ourselves on the back. Meanwhile Winnipeg has hosted this TWICE (without making such a fuss either) and we are competing with Carracas! Next thing, we will start trying to out muscle Riga or Djibouti.

For the meantime, we should focus on ruining Chicago's bid for the 2016 Olympics while getting our act together for a 2020 bid. I say one way bus tickets for all of our homeless to Chicago. (Madrid or Tokyo should have this wrapped up though).

 

[billonlogan]

IMO we should partner with the USA and go for the FIFA World Cup.