[Oliver_William]

Thanks so much for your replies. I guess I am confused because our population is growing quite nicely but all of these beautiful projects that are set to be developed seem to stall for whatever reason. It would seem to me there’s lots of demand here in the city so not understanding why they are not going ahead.

 

[thommyjo]

Hello Everybody talks about how bad the conditions are in Edmonton. But from everything I read are population is growing quite quickly (faster than Calgary) and we had a good unemployment report so I’m not really understanding why we have such bad conditions. Please look at the following below and explain to me why everything is so bad in Edmonton.

At the end of the day, we have a lot of projects go belly up here. And we’ve had high population growth for decades. So we’ve slowly improved the core and chipped away at urbanizing, but we are no where close to the level of investment and development in high density residential that more large cities in canada see. Even many smaller markets are starting to eclipse us (tri-cities, Surrey, Hamilton, KW, Halifax, etc).

It doesn’t mean Edmonton is a bad place to live. But it seems to be a hard place for developers to deploy capital and get good returns on anything that’s not primarily suburban developments.

We don’t have the severe housing prices for SFHs and suburbs that you see elsewhere. So most young people still buy a ground level home of sorts here. Whereas in the big 3 markets, it’s exclusively condos for people under 35 basically. And then even our culture is less urban/office heavy, more industrial, healthcare, spread out. So the proximity to the core is less demanded than in other centres.

We also don’t have the waterfront that many cities have that draw people to the central city, or the super effective transit or high walkability.

We do a lot of things decently. But the factors just don’t stack up to make our high density a home run for developers.

Outside of wpg, I bet we have the lowest demand for condos within 5kms of our DT of any of the 10 biggest Canadian cities. Just a guess, but can’t think of another city with less demand/sales.

 

[archited]

In any City in North America -- and I mean any City -- the number of proposed projects that graduate to renderings and then fold for one reason or another approaches 50% -- the biggest one in Calgary that comes to mind off the cuff was the arena complex proposed for the Victoria Park site -- and even the new deal has problems. Edmonton is no different than other cities except that since it grows at a rate far greater than other Canadian Cities the rate of "Proposal Collapse" may be slightly higher in accordance with the rapid growth. Edmonton is a City of immense opportunity and the naysayers are continually proven wrong -- best to ignore them.

 

[Yeggy]

Hello Everybody talks about how bad the conditions are in Edmonton. But from everything I read are population is growing quite quickly (faster than Calgary) and we had a good unemployment report so I’m not really understanding why we have such bad conditions. Please look at the following below and explain to me why everything is so bad in Edmonton.

Its not, we suck at promoting ourselves and are underfunded/actively held down by provincial politicians.

The CMA growth rates are often very similar. I have watched them trade places for years.

I will add Calgary often see’s volatility while Edmonton tends to just be more constant and measured, forgoing the large swings Calgary is prone to.

 

[Yeggy]

Re low demand for condo’s : A large portion of that is we have always continued to build housing. We recognized affordable housing was always going to be our secret weapon.

 

[IanO]

@Oliver_William Don't get derailed by 'O's comments -- he has a negative all-things-Edmonton fetish that grows faster than his toenails and that he tries to support with uni-dimensional economic data. Most on here (except for a few notables) have learned to tune him out and/or see through his masquerading persona -- Mr. "No" we call him.

Perpetuating the shit that messes with progress of this city.

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It's what folks need to hear and respond to, but far TOO many love their roles, 120-200k yr/jobs and lack of accountability.

Alas.

 

[occidentalcapital]

Hello Everybody talks about how bad the conditions are in Edmonton. But from everything I read are population is growing quite quickly (faster than Calgary) and we had a good unemployment report so I’m not really understanding why we have such bad conditions. Please look at the following below and explain to me why everything is so bad in Edmonton.

People like to focus on the negative. You won't get a balanced picture from a few on here.

 

[occidentalcapital]

Perpetuating the shit that messes with progress of this city.

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It's what folks need to hear and respond to, but far TOO many love their roles, 120-200k yr/jobs and lack of accountability.

Alas.

Even if your hypothesis was correct, posting on here isn't going to help since everyone on here is passionate about Edmonton. But it's ridiculous to claim that everyone in positions of power in edmonton is lazy or unaccountable.

 

[MacLac]

Its not, we suck at promoting ourselves and are underfunded/actively held down by provincial politicians.

The CMA growth rates are often very similar. I have watched them trade places for years.

I will add Calgary often see’s volatility while Edmonton tends to just be more constant and measured, forgoing the large swings Calgary is prone to.

Exactly! Like when CNRL bought Devon Canada…..800 folks lost their jobs in 1 week in YYC back in 2019…..entire Canterra tower emptied out in that week.

 

[Oilers99]

A large part of it is as thommyjo said is there is not a concentrated work force in downtown Edmonton. This coupled with well priced horizontal housing throughout the region hurts the condo and rental market. Costs continue to go up but rents have not risen in commensurate on the rental side. It is not easy to successfully develop high rise projects in Edmonton that's why so few are produced.

 

[Yeggy]

A large part of it is as thommyjo said is there is not a concentrated work force in downtown Edmonton. This coupled with well priced horizontal housing throughout the region hurts the condo and rental market. Costs continue to go up but rents have not risen in commensurate on the rental side. It is not easy to successfully develop high rise projects in Edmonton that's why so few are produced.

I think you are grossly mistaken. Pre pandemic there were over 90,000 jobs dt with Nearly 75% of people working in the core coming by car as a driver or passenger.

Last time i was involved in the communities of oliver/dt a number of people moved in and out of the core equivalent to that of over 2 x the population of Devon.

There are a number of false narratives that continue to exist. Yes we have dispersed employment centres but Dt remains a major if not the largest employment area of the region.

From the EMRB

 

[Platinum107]

Hello Everybody talks about how bad the conditions are in Edmonton. But from everything I read are population is growing quite quickly (faster than Calgary) and we had a good unemployment report so I’m not really understanding why we have such bad conditions. Please look at the following below and explain to me why everything is so bad in Edmonton.

I have a pretty positive perspective on things here too! I do think that Edmonton is/has been on the cusp of great change for a looong time and it's finally starting to play out, but there are def a few things that may keep Edmonton a little less desirable for developers than other cities in Canada, some of which have been mentioned already

• It's not only Edmonton that's growing; every major CMA in Canada and especially the big 3 see the bulk of new immigrants so relatively Edmonton does perform well but isn't too exceptional
• As for interprovincial migration, Edmonton is seeing lots of growth but Calgary usually sees more as, let's be honest, it is Alberta's main city and has the hot housing market, which is also attractive to developers
• Edmonton in general has done a bad job historically at marketing and being attractive for investment, which imo has changed in recent years in certain aspects. Kind of related is the provincial government's shafting of everything to do with public investment in Edmonton, because they don't really care about the city they've already lost their hold on, whereas Calgary can flip-flop still

I'm definitely not an expert in economics or politics, but these are just my thoughts on what's happening!

 

[erudyk_29]

I will add Calgary often see’s volatility while Edmonton tends to just be more constant and measured, forgoing the large swings Calgary is prone to.

This is likely due to Calgary's oil dependency. Not that Edmonton doesn't have it as well, but as the capital, we have important institutions that provide greater economic stability in times when oil prices are unfavorable (like the provincial government and the U of A). Things that Calgary doesn't have, leaving them more vulnerable to changing oil prices. So when things are good for Calgary and the Alberta oil industry, Calgary does very well, Edmonton does slightly less well. Likewise when things go bad in the oil industry, things get worse in Calgary than in Edmonton.

 

[erudyk_29]

There are a number of false narratives that continue to exist. Yes we have dispersed employment centres but Dt remains a major if not the largest employment area of the region.

100% agreed, I think that the perception of downtown as place full of crime and homelessness makes people think that it is generally a very deserted and declining area with little employment options. The truth is though that actually if you come to downtown when people are around (i.e. work time during the summer and warmer months) it's very much a bustling area with a lot of people working in the offices and such. During the winter and late at night it becomes very different however. Sometimes people think we have an LA style of development where downtown is not really a very important part of the city outside of city government and some big office towers. Downtown (and I would lump Strathcona in here too) is the cultural, political, geographical and employment center of the city and region.

 

[Greenspace]

Regardless of all the comments here about the state of Downtown good or bad or perception or otherwise, the main reason projects like this aren't going ahead is the numbers don't work. They can't reconcile the cost of construction with rents they'll get. Which is why to get any projects moving the City may need to step in to incentivize, per the discussion October 31 at Urban Planning Committee.