whattheheck said:
Anyone who thinks they can renegotiate this deal is living in la la land. The province aka the UCP control the yay or nay of the CRL. If anyone thinks the CRL extension will go forward by fundamentally changing the deal the province wants, then I would love to know what kool-aid you're drinking.

The city is backed in to a corner, for sure. But better take the deal now and at least get some funding to help DT, or watch the deal fold and complain why Calgary gets everything. FFS.

From Janz, I get the theatrics. But Knack should know better. He's playing games, using flawed logic, trying to secure the progressive vote. Remember, Iveson? He was against the arena deal as a councillor but ultimately embraced it, because he was running for Mayor and he knew, politically, he had to.
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Right, it's THIS or it's NOTHING.....there is no in between, a bird in the hand.....did their mother's not teach them anything?!!!!
 
Got sucked into listening, I Would say Cartmell is outperforming Knack in this discussion based on their descriptions of understanding of the situation to date.
 
whattheheck said:
^You do realize this is about more than just this deal. If the city votes to change the terms of the province's deal, then good luck to the city in the future when they go asking the province for any unique funding requests. The province will just balk and tell the city to FO, pointing to the fact when the province was GIVING $$$ to the city, the city tried to play fast and loose and look tough. Watch YYC get all the special funding dollars.
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Is that how it works? Scuttled deals in the past resulted in all unique deals failing in the future? That isn't true at all and a pretty weak argument. Both sides can back out if they don't think its a good deal and negotiate something else. The City of Edmonton isn't small time; quit acting like we are some back water town without any negotiating power. Last I checked, Calgary had a bumpy ride (no pun intended) with back and forth negotiations for the Green Line with the province. Do all the other developers in the City need extra Infrastructure dollars for their residential plans too? I dunno why people are scared to call garbage garbage.
 
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Puneeta McBryan had most convincing argument yesterday in her presentation I thought. She said looking at the the roi on CRL projects its the public private partnership ones that bring a city its biggest return and some cases only return. That was from her looking at the data of past crl projects and what they brought into city for the money.
 
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Ultimately I'm in favour of the CRL extension and the deal based on just ROI. It's ultimately a net good for the city and downtown if the projects stated in the CRL go ahead based on more housing, investment, etc. Renegotiating this is going to be a mess, and I'm not sure if the province is willing to pursue that sort of "grace" if it comes to that point. It's a poisoned chalice but it's the only option at the moment. The reputation from having the largest and most profitable property owner in the city putting actual shovels and building could and probably will have a cascading effect for others to join in.

That said, critics of the deal have a solid point. OEG is getting hundreds millions of dollars from the province and the city via the CRL for the event centre and Ice District 2. Isn't the money for that better spent on a combined $200 million housing and infrastructure incentive grant to multiple developers that have a solid history of getting shovels on the ground? That probably has a larger knock-off effect on the city's downtown since it's not beholden to one developer that may delay things in the future and probably has a larger residential unit outcome if we have competitive bidding for that incentive money similar to the 2021 property tax grant, compared to just 2,500 units for Ice District 2 and the event park.

I agree that there'd probably be less issue with this if OEG had crafted some public goodwill by not engaging in that publicized fight with Boyle Street, or has shown that it's ready to build new residential units without an incentive or subsidies. It's been mentioned that the Connect Centre tower was considered and approved for the 2021 property tax grant only for them to go "nah" and go after CWB's new office tower and have that fall apart.

Meme all you want on Westrich and we do in this forum, but they're actually building shit downtown without a direct subsidy or grant program. I can't say the same about OEG who probably have much larger financial capital to work with.
 
They’re on recess now but listen to the questions from the last twenty or so minutes especially.

To me, it does feel like bullying and a lack of respect to council and the public about details of this deal and the timeline.

There is a strange dichotomy between them being vague about their development plans and how strict they are with the approval process.

To me, it reads as an obvious ploy for them to speed through this approval without giving council and the public a chance to better understand the deal, which, when there is potentially more information, it might get more pushback.

They really can’t wait a few more months? Give me a break. Are shovels really ready? I call bullshit.
 
Kosy123 said:
Ultimately I'm in favour of the CRL extension and the deal based on just ROI. It's ultimately a net good for the city and downtown if the projects stated in the CRL go ahead based on more housing, investment, etc. Renegotiating this is going to be a mess, and I'm not sure if the province is willing to pursue that sort of "grace" if it comes to that point. It's a poisoned chalice but it's the only option at the moment. The reputation from having the largest and most profitable property owner in the city putting actual shovels and building could and probably will have a cascading effect for others to join in.

That said, critics of the deal have a solid point. OEG is getting hundreds millions of dollars from the province and the city via the CRL for the event centre and Ice District 2. Isn't the money for that better spent on a combined $200 million housing and infrastructure incentive grant to multiple developers that have a solid history of getting shovels on the ground? That probably has a larger knock-off effect on the city's downtown since it's not beholden to one developer that may delay things in the future and probably has a larger residential unit outcome if we have competitive bidding for that incentive money similar to the 2021 property tax grant, compared to just 2,500 units for Ice District 2 and the event park.

I agree that there'd probably be less issue with this if OEG had crafted some public goodwill by not engaging in that publicized fight with Boyle Street, or has shown that it's ready to build new residential units without an incentive or subsidies. It's been mentioned that the Connect Centre tower was considered and approved for the 2021 property tax grant only for them to go "nah" and go after CWB's new office tower and have that fall apart.

Meme all you want on Westrich and we do in this forum, but they're actually building shit downtown without a direct subsidy or grant program. I can't say the same about OEG who probably have much larger financial capital to work with.
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Does the Warehouse park constitute a subsidy or the pedway to Stationlands?
 
The motion to proceed carried 9 to 4 opposed by Janz, Knack, Rutherford and Wright. Fortunately they were outnumbered by those who had a more settled sense of possibilities and a furtherance of downtown revitalization. Tim from OEG was clear that if the vote failed the entire deal would fall apart. Three cheers for the sanity crowd!
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I think the CRL will be great if downtown can proceed with more residential construction. There has been residential development like Stationlands and the Parks. There’s no guarantee that the events centre will spur development downtown, even though the Ice District has brought more Oiler fans during the playoffs. I do think, though, that extending the CRL will provide more funds for improving downtown.
 
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