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It has taken me a long time to get my head around the idea of a junction at Agincourt South(west) to connect an Alto line on the CPKC alignment to the MX Stouffville Sub.

My gut reaction all along has been, it's just too tight.... and the differences in elevation seemed vexing.

Anyways, in the end I kind of convinced myself that it is doable..... if......

The elevation of the CP line over the MX line means that Alto has to find a place to cross the CPKC line before then crossing the MX line. Otherwise, it is not possible to tie into the west track of the MX line without flat crossovers that would cause conflicts in routings. So, that means (1) a flyover east of the junction.

The most logical place for that flyover/under is east of Brimley where there are longer distances to address the necessary gradients. I can't see Scarberians wanting a flyover across the backyards of a residential area, and a flyunder would conflict with underpasses at Sheppard and Midland.

Then, going westward, Alto can situate on the south side of CPKC, curving around at the same elevation as the CPKC, with (2) one track crossing over MX before ramping down on the west side, and (3) the other ramping down to MX level on the east side.

That implies the need for two single track ramps from that point down to roughly the 401, with turnouts immediately north of the 401 overpass (otherwise, new tunnels would be needed to widen the 401 underpass). The west side is limited by large new condo towers, but the east side might offer enough room - again with (affordable) expropriation possibly needed. The gradient would be steep but potentially acceptable, depending on how tight the curve is - the gentler the curve, the less linear room for the ramp between the curve and the 401.

The question that arises is - How tight are those curves? I drew curves using a radius of 950 feet, which at 3 inch superelevation is good for 30 mph. Clearly, that encroaches on existing buildings, but the cost of expropriating those is probably reasonable in the overall Alto price tag. Maybe others can survey it a bit differently, but I would just point out that this is a pretty restrictive speed point, beyond the zone where one can say that the train has stopped at Kennedy and is not at track speed yet so no time lost (3.2 miles from the platform at Kennedy) (PS - consider flange squeal on a tight curve on an elevated ramp in the middle of a residential area - it will happen #PearsonUP)

The relative "bills of material" would be

MX routing -
Brimley flyover
New grading south side Brimley to Junction (about 1 km of double track on the south side)
Curved bridge over West Highland Creek
Ramp to east track turnout
Overpass and ramp to west track turnout
Flyover/under at Scarborough Jct (let's be realistic and include this)

Leaside routing -
Brimley flyover (could be anywhere towards Leaside, but let's keep this the same - apples to apples)
New grading south side Brimley to Junction (ditto - about 1 km of double track on the south side)
New 2-track overpass at MX overpass
New grading and track Junction to Leaside (about 7.3 miles, double track)
New bridges at Kennedy (1 track), Ellesmere (2 track) Warden (1 track) Lawrence (2 tracks) Don Mills (2 tracks) Eglinton (2 tracks)
Grade separation at Wicksteed (4 tracks)
Taylor Massey Creek bridge (2 tracks)(300 feet)
East Don River bridge (2 tracks, 900 feet)
West Don River/DVP bridge/embankment (2 tracks, 2000 feet, of which 900 feet is a single bridge)
Refurbish Don Branch, potentially adding double track segments

So yeah, I can concede that the MX routing is definitely cheaper.... but oh, that curvature! And dealing with MX as well. I would trust CPKC more, and stay away from provincial-federal interfaces. And leave LSE with more capacity. Just don't send me the bill ;-)

- Paul

View attachment 701675

An alternative option for the junction could be just committing to more expropriation and a longer viaduct. Expropriate a large chunk of the properties between Midland and the MX corridor to allow for a smooth elevated curve with a 450m radius. That gets you to a point just beside the MX corridor before you reach the 401. Stay elevated over the 401 and then descend to merge into the MX track just before Ellesmere where more space is available. It would be ~2km of elevated guideway based on my quick measurement, not unlike the Davenport Diamond guideway.
 
If you think it's impossible to reliably run 12 trains per hour on a double-track line with ETCS, despite the fact that we currently reliably run 8 tph with old-school signalling, and despite the fact that countless systems do that around the world, then we might as well give up on GO expansion entirely because we'd need to so massively overbuild everything that the pricetag won't pass any cost/benefit analysis.

Well good thing there are already 4 tracks then.
View attachment 701287
Nit picking but MacTier is not doubled through here.
 
Nit picking but MacTier is not doubled through here.
Yeah I showed it as doubled since it's a future map, there's enough space and there's discussion of a Bolton GO service that would presumably be tied to capacity expansion on the CPKC lines. I figure a Bolton GO train would have one side platform at Mount Dennis on the CPKC line, directly connected to the existing northbound/westbound platform on the (future) Kitchener line express tracks.
 
If a Don Branch routing, what about the infrequent but not unheard of flooding, or is it assumed that the lower Don River work has solved that?
I believe any Don Branch routing would refurbish the bridge to the CP line, which, is not the problem area for the flooding. Thats more northerly on the Richmond Hill track.
 
East Harbour makes sense. It's like Toronto's version of Euston station.
Just had to recheck the thread title to make sure I‘m not in a GO/Metrolinx thread, but East Harbour makes zero sense for ALTO, neither as terminal station (there is only one choice and it‘s very obvious) nor as satelite station (there is only the Ontario Line at East Harbour which isn‘t also accessible from Union and virtually all important stations along the OL are already reachable from Union or Kennedy)…
 
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If they end up using the Bellville Sub to get into the city is it possible they do a station at Summerhill? Certainly wouldn't do great things to line 1 capacity but it imagine itd be a lot cheaper than anything downtown but a lot more faster to get to than a station father in the suburbs
 
If they end up using the Bellville Sub to get into the city is it possible they do a station at Summerhill? Certainly wouldn't do great things to line 1 capacity but it imagine itd be a lot cheaper than anything downtown but a lot more faster to get to than a station father in the suburbs
It would be a tolerable location for an interim station while the access to and all the issues at Union are sorted out, but I don‘t see enough space to build all the necessary station facilities…
 

Not going to Union would be an absolute planning disaster. This is the one single major rail project being built in a while, might as well do it right, fork the extra billion or whatever it takes to get into the centre of the city. That’s why we want HSR, so that you don’t need to get on a crowded Yonge train at Summerhill to get to Union. If that means going via the Uxbridge, so be it.
 
I think the search for a way to avoid serving Union quickly ends when you start to consider which locations with a link to any existing high-capacity regional or urban rail links would provide enough space to build:
  • At least two platform tracks
  • One very wide or two reasonably wide platforms
  • A waiting area
  • Ticket counters
  • Shops and restaurants
  • A taxi stand
  • Kiss & Ride facilities
  • A business Class lounge
  • Sufficient washroom facilities
  • Staff facilities
Oshawa is the only place for which I can imagine that it could possibly satisfy most requirements, but still an obviously sub-standard choice once you consider its geographic location at the egde of the GTHA…
 
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So... save an hour on flying, but then spend God knows how much extra time trying to get around on our poor quality, overcrowded local transit system?

Brilliant!
 

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