[Bordercollie]

Hey yeah, this is actually a brilliant point. All those crying "SIGNAL PRIORITY!" buses are still faster with THE SAME SIGNALS!!

Buses also typically travel at 10-15km faster than the posted limit especially when traffic is light.

But they don't have to wait for cars to turn first. So they do have a 30 second advantage at each red light.

That x16 stops is about 8 minutes faster. Plus the speed difference which might be up to double so there is your double the travel time and then some.

 

[urbanclient]

Hey yeah, this is actually a brilliant point. All those crying "SIGNAL PRIORITY!" buses are still faster with THE SAME SIGNALS!!

Both can be important, whether its 40/60 streetcar-slow acceleration/signal priority or 60/40 the other way is highly contextual and more opinion than fact at this point. Every LRT system has different route lengths, different stop spacing, different number of traffic signals and stops. In Line 6's case, I've demonstrated that strong active signal priority easily saves 10-12 minutes off a 52 minute end-to-end trip time. Fix the long dwell times and you save another 8 minutes. That's down to 34 minutes already. Get them to drive the trains with a lead foot (metaphorically) and you can make the line faster than a car in mild traffic. That'll go down to 25 minutes easily. If not less.

I am going to put this debate to bed about whether it's red lights or excess station dwell times that affect the final travel time more.

For reference, I timed the average dwell times for Line 6 Finch West to be 49 seconds on average for the 16 intermediate stops, from door open chime to vehicle moving again. Line 1 dwell times are around 20 seconds, which in turn are longer than Line 2. So ~30 seconds excess dwell times for each of the 16 stops. Just under 8 minutes total time wasted.

52 minute (travel time average corroborated by TTC Instructor) Finch West to Humber College trip, video not mine:

Stop	Dwell Time (sec)	Notes
Sentinel	20	—
Tobermory	50	—
Driftwood	50	—
Jane and Finch	85	—
Norfinch	45	—
Signet	65	—
Emery	55	—
Milvan	90	—
Duncanwoods	35	—
Pearldale	20	Door-open buffer after vehicle fully stops is unusually 4 sec instead of 2 sec
Rowntree	53	—
Mount Olive	65	—
Stevenson	87	—
Albion	25	—
Martin Grove	23	—
Westmore	17	Door open chime→door close; then 40s additional delay at red light (not a dwell)

Here is the red light time wasted, only partially accounting for time lost to deceleration. I want to emphasize this, time lost due to having to decelerate/accelerate before/after a red light is not fully accounted for. I only listed the 23 vehicle intersection traffic lights. A pedestrian crossing light is omitted due to its likely disuse. Line 6 had to slow and stop for 15 out of 23 intersections, for a total delay of at least 620 seconds or 10 minutes, 20 seconds. Average red light time ~41 sec.
10 min 20 sec is a very conservative figure, in reality, the time lost is probably closer to 12 minutes.

Location	Sec	#	Notes
Finch West Portal	20	1	out of tunnel straight into red light lol
Sentinel	0	2
Tobermory	0	3
Driftwood	30	4
Jane	70	5
York Gate	75	6
Norfinch	0	7
400 East	5	8
400 West	20	9
Signet	0	10
Emery	0	11
Jayzel	10	12
Milvan	50	13
Duncanwoods	25	14
Pearldale	20	15
Milday	0	16
Rowntree (Islington)	40	17
Mount Olive (Kipling)	60	18
Albion Mall	80	19
Albion	75	20
Martin Grove	0	21
John Garland	0	22
Westmore	40	23

When you subtract the red light (10) and excess dwell time (8) from 52 minutes, you get 34 minutes, which is more than in line with what Metrolinx originally claimed ("33 to 34" and "38" minutes). This also disproves the other claims that acceleration and cruising speed is too slow for Line 6. @Bordercollie The bigger problem is lack of strong signal priority—the current "conditional priority" might as well be "no priority"—and asinine dwell times of up to 90 seconds.

Source:

https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1663240053/Documents/Metrolinx/Finch-West-LRT-FAQs-Revised-June9.pdf

TL;DR red lights lead to 10 minutes of delays, which is more than the 8 minutes of excess dwell time. But, if both were removed, then this hypothetical 34 minute travel time would match Metrolinx's claims.

 

[Bojaxs]

I'm in Ottawa and we use the same trains. We had to slow our trains down because of maintenance issues. I have watched our trains near the VIA Rail station operating at bicycle speeds ever since the derailment at that location. The fact of the matter is that the PPP arrangement does not produce real solutions to the problem. Basically, everybody involved expects the public to accept the slow speed of the trains. The original solution to redesign the bogies has simply been dropped because it is too expensive of a solution. Nobody wants to pay that cost. You guys are saddled with the same design problems (and so will Mississauga in the future) so the trains have to crawl to prevent premature wear and to prevent possible derailments.

As indicated, signal priority is not the main problem. Otherwise the buses would face the same speed issues.

The Alstom Citadis Spirits are hot garbage! They can't handle turns!

Why do so many cities in Canada use them? Is it because they're majority manufactured in Canada? Is the government simply trying to keep the unemployment rate down? Is that what they saw Line 6 as? A "jobs" project rather than providing the citizens with high quality, rapid transit. Probably would help to explain why little to no consideration was given into how the finished product would perform.

To hear that Ottawa has given up on the plan to redesign the bogies on these trams is seriously disappointing.

What do we do now?

O-train is completely grade separated. Perhaps they could convert the line to use high floor LRVs?
Rip up Line 6 and convert it to a BRT?

Drastic solutions, I know, but what if 5-6 years from now, nothing changes? Line 6 in Toronto and the Confederation Line in Ottawa are still slow? At what point do we admit, "Yeah, we invested in the wrong rolling stock."?

 

[PL1]

The Alstom Citadis Spirits are hot garbage! They can't handle turns!

Why do so many cities in Canada use them? Is it because they're majority manufactured in Canada? Is the government simply trying to keep the unemployment rate down?

To hear that Ottawa has given up on the plan to redesign the bogies on these trams is seriously disappointing.

What do we do now?

O-train is completely grade separated. Perhaps they could convert the line to use high floor LRVs?
Rip up Line 6 and convert it to a BRT?

Drastic solutions, I know, but what if 5-6 years from now, nothing changes? Line 6 in Toronto and the Confederation Line in Ottawa are still slow? At what point do we admit, "Yeah, we invested in the wrong rolling stock."?

If it's truly the rolling stock, either replace the bad part or (unfortunately) replace the rolling stock!

 

[Bojaxs]

If it's truly the rolling stock, either replace the bad part or (unfortunately) replace the rolling stock!

IF @lrt's friend is correct, then the City of Ottawa, alongside Alstom, already tried to "fix the bad part", but determined it would be too expensive to pursue.

Remember, these are low floor LRVs. The wheels are fixed into the chassis/ body of the tram. Hence why they can't handle turns all that well.

High floor LRVs have more traditional bogies and wheels, which allow them to handle turns better, and at higher speeds. Plus less stress on the wheels.

Low floor LRVs are also more expensive to maintain because you essentially have to lift the entire chassis of the train up in order to work on the wheels and bogies. High floor LRVs are much easier to work on.

Look at Edmonton and Calgary's LRT systems. They have high floor LRVs still running from the 1980's. Will we get 10-15 years out of these low floor LRVs?

I'm sure someone on this forum who is more knowledgeable on rolling stock could explain all of this better than myself.

 

[Bordercollie]

They can run faster. Ottawa does it.

 

[Bojaxs]

They can run faster. Ottawa does it.

Sure, but apparently, in regards to line 6, the consortium is refusing to run them faster due to an increase in maintenance costs.

Does this have anything to do with the fact that low floor trams are expensive to maintain?

 

[Bordercollie]

Sure, but apparently, in regards to line 6, the consortium is refusing to do so due to increase in maintenance costs.

Does this have anything to do with the fact that low floor trams are expensive to maintain?

The Ottawa ones are also low floor.

It's just a negotiating tactic.

How fast is the max speed on ION?

 

[Bojaxs]

The Ottawa ones are also low floor.

It's just a negotiating tactic.

How fast is the max speed on ION?

The Ottawa LRVs travel fast when the line up ahead is just a straight shot. I haven't ridden the O-train in over a year. As of late, how fast do they handle turns?

What is the consortium trying to negotiate?

What's the point of the MAX speed if it rarely hits it? What's the average speed of the ION?

Here's from when I rode the ION back in September 15th 2024. Faster than Line 6, but probably not faster than a bus running the same route. I've attached as thumbnails.

 

[urbanclient]

Sure, but apparently, in regards to line 6, the consortium is refusing to run them faster due to an increase in maintenance costs.

Does this have anything to do with the fact that low floor trams are expensive to maintain?

Is it the consortium, or does the TTC refuse to interpret the contract in the strictest way? Still not 100% sure of this he said she said thing. If the trip times were halved with headways the same, total vehicle hours and number of vehicles needed would be halved, but km per vehicle would double. Is comparatively more maintenance on 6 vehicles more expensive than comparatively less maintenance on 12 vehicles? I would think the costs aren't drastically different. (edit from 7 and 14 to 6 and 12 vehicles).

 

[Bordercollie]

Is it the consortium, or does the TTC refuse to interpret the contract in the strictest way? Still unsure of this. If the trip times were halved with headways the same, total vehicle hours and number of vehicles needed would be halved, but km per vehicle would double. Is comparatively more maintenance on 7 vehicles more expensive than comparatively less maintenance on 14 vehicles? I would think the costs aren't drastically different.

So.... swap the vehicles more often to distribute the wear?

 

[urbanclient]

So.... swap the vehicles more often to distribute the wear?

Yeah swapping the vehicles periodically sounds like the smart idea if by some miracle we can halve the trip times.

Vehicle-km per vehicle would double, but vehicle-hours per vehicle would stay the same. Mosaic's getting paid ~$1 billion to maintain for 30 years, a ripoff for the taxpayer. I kinda doubt they are truly causing the woe is me I gotta run these trams slower than molasses because big daddy contract said so situation. Used round numbers for a hypothetical:

Metric	Scenario A (60 min one-way)	Scenario B (30 min one-way)
One-way runtime	60 min (1.0 h)	30 min (0.5 h)
Round-trip time	120 min	60 min
Headway	10 min	10 min
Fleet needed (≈ cycle/headway)	12	6
One-way trips/day (both directions)	144	144
Total vehicle-km/day (all vehicles)	1,440 km	1,440 km
Total vehicle-hours/day (all vehicles)	144 h	72 h
Vehicle-km per vehicle per day	120 km	240 km
Vehicle-hours per vehicle per day	12 h	12 h
Implied avg operating speed	10 km/h	20 km/h
Route length (one-way)	10 km	10 km

If total fleet vehicle-km per day does not change, and total fleet vehicle hours per day are actually reduced, will total maintenance costs actually be higher? Remember, half the fleet in the 30 minute trip time scenario is not used every day.

 

[Bordercollie]

6 Finch West: Six Days of Delays

Line 6 Finch West opened for service on Sunday, December 7. Beside the basic issue of glacial train speed are questions of vehicle and infrastructure reliability. This post summarizes the delays th…

stevemunro.ca

I have a really easy solution for the operator not in position. Use a step back crew to allow faster turn around time. They already do this with subways. Duh

 

[lrt's friend]

The Ottawa LRVs travel fast when the line up ahead is just a straight shot. I haven't ridden the O-train in over a year. As of late, how fast do they handle turns?

What is the consortium trying to negotiate?

What's the point of the MAX speed if it rarely hits it? What's the average speed of the ION?

Here's from when I rode the ION back in September 15th 2024. Faster than Line 6, but probably not faster than a bus running the same route. I've attached as thumbnails.

View attachment 702944
View attachment 702945

It remains pitifully slow especially at the curves near Hurdman Station. As I have said, they run at bicycle speed on both sides of Hurdman. I have watched this awful performance multiple times in the last few weeks. Another source of delay and a long held complaint in Ottawa, is station dwell times. This all appears to go back to the early days when there were numerous door faults that shut down trains. They use long dwell times to protect the doors from abuse by passengers. I contend that this is another design flaw. Excessive dwell times at stations add to the slowness of trains significantly. This is not a problem with buses, another reason why buses operate faster despite operating in mixed traffic. Rail is so expensive and have to be designed to protect foolish drivers and pedestrians, that all the safety features and policies result in slow trains as well.

 

[urbanclient]

They use long dwell times to protect the doors from abuse by passengers. I contend that this is another design flaw. Excessive dwell times at stations add to the slowness of trains significantly.

It's gotta be unique to Alstom Citadis Spirit trains because Citadis 405s in Paris do just fine doing 20 second stop and gos (18 seconds from door open to go), or even shorter dwell times. Lowest I have seen is 18 seconds stop and go. Maybe our rolling stock factory is incompetent too.

It feels like Incompetence Incorporated is a vertically integrated company, and their departments are Infrastructure Ontario, Metrolinx, Alstom Canada, Mosaic, City transportation services, and the TTC.