Go Elevated or try for Underground?

  • Work with the province and go with the Elevated option

    Votes: 65 68.4%
  • Try another approach and go for Underground option

    Votes: 26 27.4%
  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Go with a BRT solution

    Votes: 3 3.2%

  • Total voters
    95
I think it's completely bonkers that Ottawa chose to use low-floor trains on Line-1 when that line is completely grade separated.

I'm not a transit expert, but it's my understanding that low floor trains should only be used on routes that travel on streets and used for short distances. I think the Centre Street alignment is the perfect candidate for low-floor trains.

The center street alignment isn't short though, and GLs full length is 46km! That's a lot of impact should something at grade disrupt service.

On the other hand, if there was a disruption on a streetcar loop downtown the impact for most is some additional walking. Not really an option for commuters north of beddington if the train goes down!
 
If these multibilkion dollar LRT projects can't even be better than a bus, then what is the point of spending the money?
Politics (Waterloo and area are or were at the time swing ridings federally and provincially) and redevelopment - Ion is basically the Pearl District streetcar while replacing an express bus. It did really help the downtowns it runs through, redirecting at least some of the tech industry from campus style to office and loft style settings.
I think it's completely bonkers that Ottawa chose to use low-floor trains on Line-1 when that line is completely grade separated.
They thought they could use even more bonkers tech, automatically breaking trains for street running spurs in the far suburbs, basically replicating the network and service level they had with collector routes then running downtown on exclusive ROW BRT with LRT.

Without that fiction it is questionable the project would have moved forward.
 
Politics (Waterloo and area are or were at the time swing ridings federally and provincially) and redevelopment - Ion is basically the Pearl District streetcar while replacing an express bus. It did really help the downtowns it runs through, redirecting at least some of the tech industry from campus style to office and loft style settings.

They thought they could use even more bonkers tech, automatically breaking trains for street running spurs in the far suburbs, basically replicating the network and service level they had with collector routes then running downtown on exclusive ROW BRT with LRT.

Without that fiction it is questionable the project would have moved forward.
My apologies, I don't understand what breaking trains means.
 
The center street alignment isn't short though, and GLs full length is 46km! That's a lot of impact should something at grade disrupt service.

On the other hand, if there was a disruption on a streetcar loop downtown the impact for most is some additional walking. Not really an option for commuters north of beddington if the train goes down!
I agree.

I wish the city built a low-floor, tram style LRT from Aurora Business park to downtown using the alignment below. Then used a high-floor train for the SE LRT and Nose-Creek LRT.

1769454678049.png


But, what's done is done. No use dwelling about it at this point.
 
I agree.

I wish the city built a low-floor, tram style LRT from Aurora Business park to downtown using the alignment below. Then used a high-floor train for the SE LRT and Nose-Creek LRT.

View attachment 711168

But, what's done is done. No use dwelling about it at this point.
So in otherwords, what the professional transit planners had been planning for decades until Naheed Nenshi decided he knew better.

And I will point out, in terms of the north central alignment, nothing is actually done. There is still a possibilty to do what you are proposing. I would say that is actually the most likely outcome, the SE and North Central lines are separated, with the north central line running up nose creek. Then, instead of a street car, we just simply keep operaing the 301/Max Green on your route, using those new fancy shelters.
 
So in otherwords, what the professional transit planners had been planning for decades until Naheed Nenshi decided he knew better.

And I will point out, in terms of the north central alignment, nothing is actually done. There is still a possibilty to do what you are proposing. I would say that is actually the most likely outcome, the SE and North Central lines are separated, with the north central line running up nose creek. Then, instead of a street car, we just simply keep operaing the 301/Max Green on your route, using those new fancy shelters.
Ugh that would be so small-city of us. Haven't we moved beyond the LRT in a rail corridor with park-and-rides? Especially with commuter rail being closer than ever.
 
So in otherwords, what the professional transit planners had been planning for decades until Naheed Nenshi decided he knew better.

And I will point out, in terms of the north central alignment, nothing is actually done. There is still a possibilty to do what you are proposing. I would say that is actually the most likely outcome, the SE and North Central lines are separated, with the north central line running up nose creek. Then, instead of a street car, we just simply keep operaing the 301/Max Green on your route, using those new fancy shelters.
Unfortunately, I think having the SE portion of the green line using low-floor trains was the nail in the coffin for the nose-creek LRT.

I would not use low-floor trains along the Nose-Creek alignment..
 
So in otherwords, what the professional transit planners had been planning for decades until Naheed Nenshi decided he knew better.

And I will point out, in terms of the north central alignment, nothing is actually done. There is still a possibilty to do what you are proposing. I would say that is actually the most likely outcome, the SE and North Central lines are separated, with the north central line running up nose creek. Then, instead of a street car, we just simply keep operaing the 301/Max Green on your route, using those new fancy shelters.
I don't think Nenshi did much to initiate any changes - he just took a phone call before the 2015 federal election that turned out to be a poisoned chalice. With hindsight that opportunity could have been managed better - we probably could have asked for more than $4.5B and gotten it - but this was just 3 years after wrapping a ~$1.2B LRT (without any federal funding and the majority was funded by province) so the city taking on a $1.5B obligation was a dramatic increase in itself. (but I agree splitting the lines is the most pragmatic solution)


If timelines shook out a little differently it's interesting to wonder how things might have played out. For instance, if that federal phone call came a couple years later when a 2026 Olympic bid was in exploration stage then things may have been prioritized very differently; the late 2015-19 council deserves some credit for not letting that potential shiny object sway plans, though it's probably only because they already promised the world to the SE. Also a little crazy to think about the watermain situation in an alternate reality where we're welcoming the world next month!

Interestingly, connecting to the airport does not seem to have been a benefit considered in the Nose Creek alignment...at least not as of 2005 (but speaking of shiny objects I can imagine why they might be reluctant to draw that line on a map):

Screenshot 2026-01-26 at 2.37.06 PM.png



But looking at the strategic plans from 2005 also shows that the green line is not the first time 'professional transit plans' have changed quite substantially - the idea then was to start with BRT in the west, north, and SE:

Screenshot 2026-01-26 at 2.38.47 PM.png
Screenshot 2026-01-26 at 2.40.11 PM.png


Which would have meant we'd have something like this by now:

Screenshot 2026-01-26 at 2.41.28 PM.png


Instead we built the west LRT right away (operational about 8 years before planned here), extended to Tuscany/Saddletowne, and implemented some other glorified BRTs.

They knew as of 2005 that they didn't really know how to handle 3 or 4 LRTs entering DT in the east and had ordered studies to figure it out. The progressions from BRT to LRT within a decade never made a ton of sense, but it was a mistake to seemingly abandon mode progression altogether.

It's interesting to wonder if the money fairy was more generous in the late 2000s if they would have jumped to doing the W and SE together...they did have LF trains in mind by then for the SE, so maybe both lines stay on the south side of the heavy tracks (though the beltline was a lot less developed at that point)
 
Unfortunately, I think having the SE portion of the green line using low-floor trains was the nail in the coffin for the nose-creek LRT.

I would not use low-floor trains along the Nose-Creek alignment..
You wouldn't use LF. If Nose Creek happens it'll be because the province wants it to drive their regional rail. Hard to say if the province has thought about branching it into the north-central communities or if the city is receptive to that idea. The key would be getting properly into the core (elevated on 9th?).

Another hindsight fantasy idea: Red line into 8 Ave subway. Nose creek (airport and north central spurs) interlines with Blue line near the zoo. Grand Central Station opposite Sunalta Station with a giant creosote soaked park and ride for the train to Banff (there's an Impark lot there now...no idea who owns it?). If they hadn't screwed up the Westbrook tunnel then the blue line would spur down to MRU with HF trains (2 spurs out west DT vs 3 spurs out east DT).

It's probably more than you'd want on 7 Ave in the long run, but it would still be a bit less than we are currently stuck with on 7th for the long run.
 
I don't think Nenshi did much to initiate any changes ...
He specifically campaigned on this with his initial run back in 2010 if I recall, with the slogan of "because that is where the people are". No analysis of if it was feasible, no costing apparently, completely ignoring decades of long-term planning that went into our LRT network.
 
He specifically campaigned on this with his initial run back in 2010 if I recall, with the slogan of "because that is where the people are". No analysis of if it was feasible, no costing apparently, completely ignoring decades of long-term planning that went into our LRT network.
North Central/North was viewed as decades off then. Probably what will actually be accomplished, about 10-15 years from now to get to 64th.
 
Ugh that would be so small-city of us. Haven't we moved beyond the LRT in a rail corridor with park-and-rides? Especially with commuter rail being closer than ever.
Using the nose creek alignment is cheap and fast as it's mostly grade-separated and the alignment is straight.

In the Nose-creek corridor, the city and province could build a REM style train system similar to what Montreal uses. Maybe it doesn't have to be automated, but it could have stops at:

-64th Ave.
-32nd Ave.
-16th Ave. (with a transfer to MAX orange)

The system would have:

-High-floor trains that can reach speeds of 100-120km/h
-Longer distances between stations
-Stations that have a bypass that could allow HSR to pass

There could be three lines:
1. Harvest HIlls
2. Airdrie
3. The Airport

1769473949542.png
 

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