[T3G]

I forget when is the western section supposed to be operational? Lots of celebrating the eastern leg opening this weekend yet it’ll only go to mount Dennis after 15 years. Someone please remind me - When is this slow moving train to nowhere supposed to be complete again?

Is this not a rather extreme point of view? People are celebrating the main line opening this weekend because that's how far the original contract called for it to go. It's nonsense to expect the extension further west to be open any time soon considering construction on it started ten years later. And train to nowhere is a pretty facile insult. It's a 19 km long line through midtown ... if this is a train to nowhere, then what do you call the Sheppard line?

Am I the only one who's getting fed up with the extreme rhetoric around the LRT lines? Good lord. Is there a thread for people on this forum who want to have a nuanced and balanced discussion?

 

[innsertnamehere]

It won’t be 2030 but probably not 2036 either.

The western portion is a much more recent project than the central portion mind you - it’s only about a 5-year old project at this point compared to the central portion which is ~18 years from initiation now.

Even if the western part opens in 2035 that’s “only” 15 years, so an improvement! And it should be sooner than that.

 

[Thaboss]

I forget when is the western section supposed to be operational? Lots of celebrating the eastern leg opening this weekend yet it’ll only go to mount Dennis after 15 years. Someone please remind me - When is this slow moving train to nowhere supposed to be complete again?

It won’t be 2030 but probably not 2036 either.

The western portion is a much more recent project than the central portion mind you - it’s only about a 5-year old project at this point compared to the central portion which is ~18 years from initiation now.

Even if the western part opens in 2035 that’s “only” 15 years, so an improvement! And it should be sooner than that.

If you strip away your cynicism you'll see that this project appears to be ahead of schedule as all tunneling is basically complete and because construction is in its own ROW, and most construction takes place outside of highly dense parts of the city. we can reasonable expect delays moving forward to be minimal.

Technical challanges aside, there's very little reason to not think that construction here has been well managed for metrolinx standards.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

all eyes on this

2030

Meanwhile, the former Line 3, now busway, is aiming for a September 2026 opening. The other Line 3 (AKA Ontario Line) has a opening range of "early 2030s", which means "late 2030s".

 

[urbanclient]

It won’t be 2030 but probably not 2036 either.

Yeah I am expecting 2033 earliest. 2031 plus the usual 1-2 years of Metrolinx's final touches (see Line 6 Finch West) plus inevitable delays.

all tunneling is basically complete

The station construction should be the largest single cost / be the slowest part though.

 

[TorontoPotential]

Is this not a rather extreme point of view? People are celebrating the main line opening this weekend because that's how far the original contract called for it to go. It's nonsense to expect the extension further west to be open any time soon considering construction on it started ten years later. And train to nowhere is a pretty facile insult. It's a 19 km long line through midtown ... if this is a train to nowhere, then what do you call the Sheppard line?

Am I the only one who's getting fed up with the extreme rhetoric around the LRT lines? Good lord. Is there a thread for people on this forum who want to have a nuanced and balanced discussion?

lol you ok there? Been to Renforth lately? I stand firm in my opinion that it is quite literally a line to NOWHERE but now good luck explaining how dense and diverse Renforth is and you’d be correct by stating the Sheppard line is a line to nowhere, albeit a far more diverse and dense area than Renforth will ever be. There, There.

My thanks to those who answered with clarity on the question that I asked

 

[lastcommodore]

lol you ok there? Been to Renforth lately? I stand firm in my opinion that it is quite literally a line to NOWHERE but now good luck explaining how dense and diverse Renforth is and you’d be correct by stating the Sheppard line is a line to nowhere, albeit a far more diverse and dense area than Renforth will ever be. There, There.

My thanks to those who answered with clarity on the question that I asked

Obviously Renforth isn't a bastion of density, but I think it's a little reductive to say that there's no merit to a Renforth stop. This will provide a much simpler connection between MCC and up-town Toronto and connect the whole ECWE catchment area much better to Pearson via MiWay's 107 thru Renforth. It provides some much-needed redundancy to the GO Train network for the Milton line. It also paves the way for a Pearson extension (And such an extension sans Renforth would not make sense for interconnectivity)

I know everyone likes to forget the MT exists but it carries 4 mil. riders/yr at its stations, equivalent to the GO Milton line in Mississauga- and it connects to zero rapid transit (Buses getting off the MT and going to a RT station don't count).

I'm really not even sure what the alternative is supposed to be, other than "It should extend to Pearson", which everyone would be with you on if you are suggesting that- but instead all you're saying is that it goes "To nowhere". A shorter ECWE would be even more "To nowhere" and a longer ECWE would encroach on MT and Mississauga's territory and make no sense.

Thinking about it again- What even does "to nowhere" mean here? You are also saying the Sheppard line, a line far more diverse and dense, is also "to nowhere", so density isn't the problem, but also ECWE is also "to nowhere" despite having connections to the MT, airport buses, and GO buses. So what constitutes not nowhere?

 

[fanoftoronto]

lol you ok there? Been to Renforth lately? I stand firm in my opinion that it is quite literally a line to NOWHERE but now good luck explaining how dense and diverse Renforth is and you’d be correct by stating the Sheppard line is a line to nowhere, albeit a far more diverse and dense area than Renforth will ever be. There, There.

My thanks to those who answered with clarity on the question that I asked

Well by that logic then we shouldn't have built a subway station at Kipling. Here's an aerial view of the Kipling Station area around the time that the extension from Islington was being built. Talk about a train to nowhere:

The redeeming aspect of Kipling was the number of bus connections that were made to terminate at Kipling station which in turn increases ridership enough now that it has consistently been in the top 10 most used subway stations in the entire system. Even today with all the condos and developments around Kipling, the major driving factor for ridership at the station is bus connections.

Now I'm not saying that Renforth station is going to beat or exceed Kipling by any means but Renforth station is in a major employment centre of Mississauga (the Airport Corporate Centre) with a myriad of bus connections already in place.

Hardly a "train to nowhere".

Edit: Apologies @lastcommodore I didn't see your post when I wrote my post out

 

[TorontoPotential]

Well by that logic then we shouldn't have built a subway station at Kipling. Here's an aerial view of the Kipling Station area around the time that the extension from Islington was being built. Talk about a train to nowhere:

View attachment 712903

The redeeming aspect of Kipling was the number of bus connections that were made to terminate at Kipling station which in turn increases ridership enough now that it has consistently been in the top 10 most used subway stations in the entire system. Even today with all the condos and developments around Kipling, the major driving factor for ridership at the station is bus connections.

Now I'm not saying that Renforth station is going to beat or exceed Kipling by any means but Renforth station is in a major employment centre of Mississauga (the Airport Corporate Centre) with a myriad of bus connections already in place.
View attachment 712905

Hardly a "train to nowhere".

Edit: Apologies @lastcommodore I didn't see your post when I wrote my post out

Irrelevant reply because Kipling *WAS* and *IS* a mistake when it should have at least terminated at Sherway. In this case, here we go again stopping short when there is literally a far more important node a couple km away at Pearson but it’s understandable for all to have such low bar expectations of Metrolinx who have zero foresight and planning capability. Building an incomplete subway line to connect to a bus line when there could easily be a full loop connection to Pearson and back to the UpExpress is just another example of us accepting junk when this should have already been done and even now its not being built out fully - and could easily be future proofed with a tiny more effort. Terminating @ Renforth is about as good as we should have expected in the 1990’s but I digress. Lots of Metrolinx employees on here justifying their paycheques and existence.

 

[TorontoPotential]

Obviously Renforth isn't a bastion of density, but I think it's a little reductive to say that there's no merit to a Renforth stop. This will provide a much simpler connection between MCC and up-town Toronto and connect the whole ECWE catchment area much better to Pearson via MiWay's 107 thru Renforth. It provides some much-needed redundancy to the GO Train network for the Milton line. It also paves the way for a Pearson extension (And such an extension sans Renforth would not make sense for interconnectivity)

I know everyone likes to forget the MT exists but it carries 4 mil. riders/yr at its stations, equivalent to the GO Milton line in Mississauga- and it connects to zero rapid transit (Buses getting off the MT and going to a RT station don't count).

I'm really not even sure what the alternative is supposed to be, other than "It should extend to Pearson", which everyone would be with you on if you are suggesting that- but instead all you're saying is that it goes "To nowhere". A shorter ECWE would be even more "To nowhere" and a longer ECWE would encroach on MT and Mississauga's territory and make no sense.

Thinking about it again- What even does "to nowhere" mean here? You are also saying the Sheppard line, a line far more diverse and dense, is also "to nowhere", so density isn't the problem, but also ECWE is also "to nowhere" despite having connections to the MT, airport buses, and GO buses. So what constitutes not nowhere?

Never said there shouldn’t be a stop there. You did. How anybody can accept the lack of a closed loop solution when Pearson and the connection to UPExpress is so close is mind boggling, but sure, yes, it’s better than what exists today <Shoulder Shrug>

 

[fanoftoronto]

Irrelevant reply. There is literally an urgent and important node a couple km away. - it’s called Pearson but it’s understandable for all to have such low bar expectations of Metrolinx who have zero foresight and planning capability. Building an incomplete subway line to connect to a bus line when there could easily be a full loop connection to Pearson and back to the UpExpress is just another example of us accepting junk when this should have already been done, and could be done better. Terminating Renforth is about as good as we should have expected in the 1990’s but I digress. Lots of Metrolinx employees on here justifying their paycheques and existence.

Do subway lines only have to terminate at important nodes? Let's go through the historical terminal stations for the TTC. Union (Yes), Eglinton (No), St. George (No), Keele (No), Woodbine (No), Islington (No), Warden (No), York Mills (No), Finch (Yes), Wilson (No), Kipling (No), Kennedy (No), McCowan (Yes), Sheppard-West (No), Don Mills (Yes?), Vaugan Metropolitan Centre (Yes).

By your logic the TTC has been bungling most of their subway extensions the past 70 years! Only 5 nodes out of 16 different termini!

No one here is arguing that Eglinton west extension needs to have an extension to Pearson airport (which is almost 5 km, not "couple km away"). But just because it doesn't yet go there yet doesn't make this a "train to nowhere".

 

[TorontoPotential]

Do subway lines only have to terminate at important nodes? Let's go through the historical terminal stations for the TTC. Union (Yes), Eglinton (No), St. George (No), Keele (No), Woodbine (No), Islington (No), Warden (No), York Mills (No), Finch (Yes), Wilson (No), Kipling (No), Kennedy (No), McCowan (Yes), Sheppard-West (No), Don Mills (Yes?), Vaugan Metropolitan Centre (Yes).

By your logic the TTC has been bungling most of their subway extensions the past 70 years! Only 5 nodes out of 16 different termini!

View attachment 712930

No one here is arguing that Eglinton west extension needs to have an extension to Pearson airport (which is almost 5 km, not "couple km away"). But just because it doesn't yet go there yet doesn't make this a "train to nowhere"”

Snooze. The city and traffic surrounding it is shambles because we have disjointed transit that requires multiple transfers to get anywhere and here we are continuing to build transit like we are a small city. We need to do more not expect less. Your pointing out historical decisions when this city was small potatoes is silly and immature. It’s time to do things differently and better because the city is overgrown and underserviced. Metrolinx is making the same mistake with terminating Ontario Line at the parking lot that will house a spa at Ontario Place. All train projects need to be closed loop and connect somewhere but I digress, lets keep paying more for less and then justifying it because “That’s how it always was”.

 

[lastcommodore]

Never said there shouldn’t be a stop there. You did. How anybody can accept the lack of a closed loop solution when Pearson and the connection to UPExpress is so close is mind boggling, but sure, yes, it’s better than what exists today <Shoulder Shrug>

Then just say what you wanted... I cant read your mind. When someone calls something a "X to nowhere" that colloqually means a boondoggle that shouldnt be done.

"I wish it went to Pearson." There you go, thats all you had to say. Literally everyone here is on you with that. Instead you yell about how Renforth is nowhere, which is both unhelpful and wrong.

 

[Westey]

Do subway lines only have to terminate at important nodes? Let's go through the historical terminal stations for the TTC. Union (Yes), Eglinton (No), St. George (No), Keele (No), Woodbine (No), Islington (No), Warden (No), York Mills (No), Finch (Yes), Wilson (No), Kipling (No), Kennedy (No), McCowan (Yes), Sheppard-West (No), Don Mills (Yes?), Vaugan Metropolitan Centre (Yes).

By your logic the TTC has been bungling most of their subway extensions the past 70 years! Only 5 nodes out of 16 different termini!

View attachment 712930

No one here is arguing that Eglinton west extension needs to have an extension to Pearson airport (which is almost 5 km, not "couple km away"). But just because it doesn't yet go there yet doesn't make this a "train to nowhere".

Could Finch be a No too?

 

[urbanclient]

Could Finch be a No too?

Finch is a big transit hub for buses to and from York Region, GO and TTC buses as well. But you could argue it only became important after the subway terminated there 50 years ago.

I think @TorontoPotential and the rest of you @lastcommodore @fanoftoronto @T3G make good points.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't @TorontoPotential saying it would've been more optimal for the Line 5 west extension to have gone to Pearson in one breath by the early 2030s, rather than 2040+? Maybe that got lost in the strong rhetoric early on. Hard to argue against the ultimate point, but alas we are dealing with a limited budget and wasteful P3s.

Renforth might be nowhere compared to Pearson, but it is a transit hub like Kipling; the latter has transit-oriented developments sprouting nearby. I'm sure Renforth will get TODs eventually.

Same logic applies, but different context, for Line 2 Kipling vs. Sherway. Just a thought experiment: had the governments at the time knew how expensive transit would be by today, would they have stopped short at Kipling and Kennedy in 1980? Or would they have grovelled to the province and the feds to get enough money for longer extensions?

In 2026, I think we ought to lobby both levels of government to push for Ontario Line extensions soon as well. I'm ambivalent about a western/northern extension from Exhibition, some have suggested interlining with / taking over the UP Express ROW. I don't know if that would be optimal, even if feasible.

Metrolinx is making the same mistake with terminating Ontario Line at the parking lot that will house a spa at Ontario Place.

Exhibition isn't that bad, come on. BMO Field and Ricoh/Coca-Cola Coliseum are right next door. Those are destinations in and of themselves. Not to mention the first Lakeshore West subway connection outside Union (the last line without one).