[Bordercollie]

Would you travel to the Sault for medical treatments and there is an airport connecting you to Toronto.

You can also cross over to the states as well.

 

[micheal_can]

Would you travel to the Sault for medical treatments and there is an airport connecting you to Toronto.

What about someone in Thessalon? You know, the place that cannot keep an ER open 24/7.

You can also cross over to the states as well.

Not covered under OHIP.

 

[Bordercollie]

What about someone in Thessalon? You know, the place that cannot keep an ER open 24/7.

Not covered under OHIP.

I didn't mean to go to the US for treatment but in general.

 

[micheal_can]

I didn't mean to go to the US for treatment but in general.

For what?

 

[lenaitch]

Oba mostly exists as a minor CN service point.

And it is road served (term used loosely )

It would have the same appeal that the Northlander is bringing that most 'big city folks' cannot understand.

The point you are missing is an ACR passenger train, in addition to ending in the middle of nowhere, would serve such a tiny population. The Northlander will serve a much higher population.

The romanticism of passenger rail is fine, but the operating cost, meaning the amount of subsidy required, would be astronomical, not to mention the upfront cost of rehabilitating the line (including a floating wooden bridge), re-installing a diamond at Franz and probably facilities at Oba (crew bunking, etc.). A railroad needs a financial reason to exist and I honestly don't know what business Agawa Canyon RR (Watco-owned former CN Soo sub) has beyond the seasonal tour train but is suspect it is not much outside of the Soo yard.

Let's say you own a tourist camp that is served by this train. When they shut it down, after it being in existence in some form or another for over 100 years, how would customers get to your business?

It would be a disruption, as it was when pax service was ended in 2015, I guess that's what happens if you base your business model on another private business. I suspect most moved to fly-in. The few that I remember from living up there seem to be still in business.

Would you travel to the Sault for medical treatments and there is an airport connecting you to Toronto.

You can also cross over to the states as well.

The problem is the very few number of 'yous' that this train would serve.

I suppose some folks still might go over the river far gas and such but Soo MI is 1/5 the size of Soo ON so not a whole lot there. I lived in the area for three years and never did.

What about someone in Thessalon? You know, the place that cannot keep an ER open 24/7.

Are we expanding the discussion to the HCR territory now? Lots of small town southern Ontario hospital ERs have to close at nigh too.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Let's say you own a tourist camp that is served by this train. When they shut it down, after it being in existence in some form or another for over 100 years, how would customers get to your business?

The government should not be in the business of subsidizing the transportation requirements of individual tourist camps.

 

[micheal_can]

And it is road served (term used loosely )


The point you are missing is an ACR passenger train, in addition to ending in the middle of nowhere, would serve such a tiny population. The Northlander will serve a much higher population.

The romanticism of passenger rail is fine, but the operating cost, meaning the amount of subsidy required, would be astronomical, not to mention the upfront cost of rehabilitating the line (including a floating wooden bridge), re-installing a diamond at Franz and probably facilities at Oba (crew bunking, etc.). A railroad needs a financial reason to exist and I honestly don't know what business Agawa Canyon RR (Watco-owned former CN Soo sub) has beyond the seasonal tour train but is suspect it is not much outside of the Soo yard.


It would be a disruption, as it was when pax service was ended in 2015, I guess that's what happens if you base your business model on another private business. I suspect most moved to fly-in. The few that I remember from living up there seem to be still in business.

Remember when the government did mitigation during the construction of various transit lines that shut down streets throughout Toronto...

Are we expanding the discussion to the HCR territory now? Lots of small town southern Ontario hospital ERs have to close at nigh too.

I thought this was of that route. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The government should not be in the business of subsidizing the transportation requirements of individual tourist camps.

Then shut down every airport and highway as the government subsidizes those too.

The only highway that pays for itself in the province is the 407.

 

[lenaitch]

Remember when the government did mitigation during the construction of various transit lines that shut down streets throughout Toronto...

No clue what you mean by that.

Then shut down every airport and highway as the government subsidizes those too.

The only highway that pays for itself in the province is the 407.

There is a difference between public and private property.

I'm not aware that 'the government' (federal and/or provincial) subsidizes airport operations. They do receive public money from FedNor, etc. for specific projects or upgrades but not for operations. The city of North Bay gave a bunch of money to its airport because they own it. The only airports in Ontario that the provincial government directly owns are remote FNTs, and the feds contribute to that.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Then shut down every airport and highway as the government subsidizes those too.

If there were an airport serving a single holiday camp and literally nobody else, they 100% should shut it down.

 

[micheal_can]

If there were an airport serving a single holiday camp and literally nobody else, they 100% should shut it down.

I am guessing you assume there is only a single holiday camp along the line too.

 

[McGillicuddy]

I am guessing you assume there is only a single holiday camp along the line too.

No, I think it's grotesque to charge the taxpayer $1000 per passenger ($500 per direction) to subsidize the tourist camp industry. The exact number of whistle stops is irrelevant to that conclusion.

 

[lenaitch]

To be clear, and going on old memory and Google Earth, I think there were only one, maybe two, remote outfitter/hunt/fish camps that were actually 'on the line'. Others were close (other end of a lake, bush trail access, etc.). They primarily exist as fly-in camps. Private hunters, snowmobilers, etc. would use the passenger service (it had a baggage car) to access their own cabins or just an area of the bush.

I think any loss of backcountry access by the cancellation of the previous service was overstated when it was announced.

 

[NorthernTracks]

This is one passenger rail project that I've been hesitant to write about in my Northern Tracks columns.

One the one hand, I don't believe highway access should be the sole barometer in determining whether or not to preserve or resume a passenger train. Even with the TransCanada and secondary highways, the northern portion of Algoma District remains isolated (remote), with limited or no cell coverage between communities. Highway 17 is quite often closed for extended periods of time during the winter months, which hampers people's ability to travel when seeking various health, education or commercial services. Highways aren't exactly parallel to the railway tracks north of Searchmont.

On the other, I question how many cultural/economic ties there are between Sault-Ste-Marie, Hearst, as well as with the communities situated along the proposed route. Most young adults from the Steel City (anglophone) aren't likely to do their post secondary education en français at Université de Hearst or Collège Boréal's campus in Hearst. Most francophones in Hearst and Dubreuilville aren't likely choosing Algoma University or Sault College to do theirs (in English no less). Medical patients are most likely travelling to Timmins or Sudbury for more advanced treatments than they are to the Sault Area Hospital.

That leaves tourists and cottagers as the demographic that stands ride this train on a somewhat regular basis. And it's not likely going to be year round. Perhaps there is untapped potential to transport workers to remote mining and forestry sites along the line.

The Agawa Canyon Railway (Watco) is in a mothballed state north of the where the Tour Train stops. There is zero freight traffic between Franz* & Oba Hearst, meaning the amount of capital required to resume that portion of the line is going to be substantial.

We can debate the merits of whether it's appropriate to fund public transportation to lodges, cottages tourist camps. It's interesting how this argument doesn't seem to come up to justify spending public funds on roads to and from multi-million dollar secondary residences in Cottage Country (north of Toronto), or through Algonquin Park. Taxpayer dollars fund the operation of the Chi-Cheemaun ferry between Tobermory and South Baymouth (Manitoulin Island) even though both communities (granted, separated by water) are connected to the provincial highway network.

That said, I don't believe for a second that Oba (let alone Oba Lake) isn't an appropriate place to terminate/start a passenger train. There are no waiting facilities to speak of at Franz or Oba, let alone any services. Anyone attempting a hypothetical connection with the Sudbury-White River train or the Canadian runs the risk of being left stranded in an extremely isolated area of wilderness in the event either train is cancelled (Budd Car in February 2026) or delayed for 12+ hours (the Canadian).

At the very least, the proposal, in its current form, needs work. Personally, I'd rather see the Bear train connect Sault-Ste-Marie to Thunder Bay. There are natural travel patterns between those two cities and the communities in between. But that's an entirely different issue.

 

[lenaitch]

This is one passenger rail project that I've been hesitant to write about in my Northern Tracks columns.

One the one hand, I don't believe highway access should be the sole barometer in determining whether or not to preserve or resume a passenger train. Even with the TransCanada and secondary highways, the northern portion of Algoma District remains isolated (remote), with limited or no cell coverage between communities. Highway 17 is quite often closed for extended periods of time during the winter months, which hampers people's ability to travel when seeking various health, education or commercial services. Highways aren't exactly parallel to the railway tracks north of Searchmont.

On the other, I question how many cultural/economic ties there are between Sault-Ste-Marie, Hearst, as well as with the communities situated along the proposed route. Most young adults from the Steel City (anglophone) aren't likely to do their post secondary education en français at Université de Hearst or Collège Boréal's campus in Hearst. Most francophones in Hearst and Dubreuilville aren't likely choosing Algoma University or Sault College to do theirs (in English no less). Medical patients are most likely travelling to Timmins or Sudbury for more advanced treatments than they are to the Sault Area Hospital.

That leaves tourists and cottagers as the demographic that stands ride this train on a somewhat regular basis. And it's not likely going to be year round. Perhaps there is untapped potential to transport workers to remote mining and forestry sites along the line.

The Agawa Canyon Railway (Watco) is in a mothballed state north of the where the Tour Train stops. There is zero freight traffic between Franz* & Oba Hearst, meaning the amount of capital required to resume that portion of the line is going to be substantial.

We can debate the merits of whether it's appropriate to fund public transportation to lodges, cottages tourist camps. It's interesting how this argument doesn't seem to come up to justify spending public funds on roads to and from multi-million dollar secondary residences in Cottage Country (north of Toronto), or through Algonquin Park. Taxpayer dollars fund the operation of the Chi-Cheemaun ferry between Tobermory and South Baymouth (Manitoulin Island) even though both communities (granted, separated by water) are connected to the provincial highway network.

That said, I don't believe for a second that Oba (let alone Oba Lake) isn't an appropriate place to terminate/start a passenger train. There are no waiting facilities to speak of at Franz or Oba, let alone any services. Anyone attempting a hypothetical connection with the Sudbury-White River train or the Canadian runs the risk of being left stranded in an extremely isolated area of wilderness in the event either train is cancelled (Budd Car in February 2026) or delayed for 12+ hours (the Canadian).

At the very least, the proposal, in its current form, needs work. Personally, I'd rather see the Bear train connect Sault-Ste-Marie to Thunder Bay. There are natural travel patterns between those two cities and the communities in between. But that's an entirely different issue.

Good summary. Whether or not a mine site is adjacent to a railway is matter of geology. Ontario no longer allows new townsites around new mines, because they are stuck servicing them once the mine closes. The gold camp near Goudreau (on the former ACR) has it base camp at Dubreilville and is accessed by bush roads that already existed. The Musslewhite mine in northwestern Ontario is considered a fly-in site even though it is accessible by road (very long and very remote). Rail to service a mine is only required if your final product is measured in tones, not ounces. That was the genesis of the ACR in the first place.

 

[micheal_can]

This is one passenger rail project that I've been hesitant to write about in my Northern Tracks columns.

One the one hand, I don't believe highway access should be the sole barometer in determining whether or not to preserve or resume a passenger train. Even with the TransCanada and secondary highways, the northern portion of Algoma District remains isolated (remote), with limited or no cell coverage between communities. Highway 17 is quite often closed for extended periods of time during the winter months, which hampers people's ability to travel when seeking various health, education or commercial services. Highways aren't exactly parallel to the railway tracks north of Searchmont.

On the other, I question how many cultural/economic ties there are between Sault-Ste-Marie, Hearst, as well as with the communities situated along the proposed route. Most young adults from the Steel City (anglophone) aren't likely to do their post secondary education en français at Université de Hearst or Collège Boréal's campus in Hearst. Most francophones in Hearst and Dubreuilville aren't likely choosing Algoma University or Sault College to do theirs (in English no less). Medical patients are most likely travelling to Timmins or Sudbury for more advanced treatments than they are to the Sault Area Hospital.

That leaves tourists and cottagers as the demographic that stands ride this train on a somewhat regular basis. And it's not likely going to be year round. Perhaps there is untapped potential to transport workers to remote mining and forestry sites along the line.

The Agawa Canyon Railway (Watco) is in a mothballed state north of the where the Tour Train stops. There is zero freight traffic between Franz* & Oba Hearst, meaning the amount of capital required to resume that portion of the line is going to be substantial.

We can debate the merits of whether it's appropriate to fund public transportation to lodges, cottages tourist camps. It's interesting how this argument doesn't seem to come up to justify spending public funds on roads to and from multi-million dollar secondary residences in Cottage Country (north of Toronto), or through Algonquin Park. Taxpayer dollars fund the operation of the Chi-Cheemaun ferry between Tobermory and South Baymouth (Manitoulin Island) even though both communities (granted, separated by water) are connected to the provincial highway network.

That said, I don't believe for a second that Oba (let alone Oba Lake) isn't an appropriate place to terminate/start a passenger train. There are no waiting facilities to speak of at Franz or Oba, let alone any services. Anyone attempting a hypothetical connection with the Sudbury-White River train or the Canadian runs the risk of being left stranded in an extremely isolated area of wilderness in the event either train is cancelled (Budd Car in February 2026) or delayed for 12+ hours (the Canadian).

At the very least, the proposal, in its current form, needs work. Personally, I'd rather see the Bear train connect Sault-Ste-Marie to Thunder Bay. There are natural travel patterns between those two cities and the communities in between. But that's an entirely different issue.

Remember where all the decisions are made is also where the majority of our politicians live. So, if it suits them, such as an expanded highway system for their cottage drive, then they will do it. When it does not, they make an excuse, like the reason 69 still is not 4 lanes. They say it is because of the FN reserves. The 400 already goes through a fN reserve. That got resolved because it was advantageous to cottagers from the south.

Right now,John Vanthof, an MPP for Timiskaming—Cochrane is on a tour of northern ON and highlighting the road issues. In 2024 Highway 11 was closed 363 times. In 2024, Highway 17 was closed 886! When they are closed they are closed in both directions. How many times has the 401 been closed in both directions in 2024? It is numbers like this that is why the excuse of "oh, you still have a highway to take to get there" is nonsense.

NDP politicians set off on road trip to highlight northern Ontario road dangers

Three Ontario New Democrats have set off on a road trip from Toronto to the Manitoba border and back to highlight the dangers of northern roads.

www.ctvnews.ca

I just came back from a drive from Montreal to Sudbury. Saw the game on Tuesday ant was planning on leaving the next day. Saw the forecast and, after dropping a friend off, headed home...at 11:30pm. A normal 8 hour drive turned into a 10 hour drive as we hit the storm in Pembroke. Cruising at around 60km/hr for much of the way is not fun. Thank goodness we are smart and drive an AWD SUV with wither tires and studs.

For decades, there has been a quiet push for separation, not from Canada, but from the province. It is things like this that highlight why. For those that do not get it,I understand why you do not get it. You have roads to your cottage, you have good transit to your specialists, And when a major road closes, it is rare. You do not live in the same world as we do. The government tends to cut things where votes don't matter. The return of the Northlander is showing that there may be home that we are seeing that reversed.