[euges720]

I have been, and always will be, a proud user of public transit. I support it, I promote it, and I just love it, for so many reasons. There have been discussion about the poor service (however you define that word) of the TTC. I won't write an essay here, but I just really want to get out why I support the TTC, sort of.

Here's a bit of background about me. Yes, I'm young. I'm Chinese, and only 27. But I've been to pretty much everywhere in the world (literally). I grew up in Hong Kong (for my early childhood), studied for a year in London, studied for a year in Chicago, but I grew up for most of my life in Toronto. Whenever I travel, I have a goal to be on the city's subway system (if there is one). Some people collect stamps, I collect these "experiences". I'm a Ph.D. student in the social sciences, at UofT, if it matters. Anyways...

A lot of people compare the TTC to public transportation systems such as New York, London, Paris, and even Hong Kong. Most of the time, the comparison is with Hong Kong, for so many possible reasons which I won't get into. But please, people, you can not -- categorically can not -- compare Toronto to these cities. Two primary reasons exist. One, the other cities are much more dense than Toronto, making it qualitatively different on a base-rate basis. Density is the number one factor that can drive public transit. Second, cultures are different. In London, Paris, and Hong Kong, their residents are not car-centric. Driving is a very North American thing. Torontonians love their cars -- let's face it -- and it's just so hard to get them off the road and into a streetcar or bus or subway.

I'm going to keep talking about Hong Kong, because I am intimately most knowledgeable about this. Funding between the two cities for public transit is entirely different. Hong Kong's MTR promotes itself as a private business, but it does receive funding from two main sources. One is from their property developments (they develop malls and high-rise apartments), and their revenue from such sources more than outweighs their cost of building the rails. The MTR is perhaps the most efficient -- and nicest -- transit system I have ever been on. But, I don't like it for two reasons. It's like saying a kid can get an A in math, but a C in English, and a parent says it's okay, because the two balances out in the end. MTR should make money in both its property and public transit enterprises. And, if you think about it, MTR can't build houses without rails, but it can't build rails without their houses either; simply put, it really doesn't know what its main business objectives is most of the time.

Second, honestly, whenever asks for funding from the Hong Kong government, they get it, a lot of it. Their planned extension on Hong Kong Island and throughout the northwest territories is principally funded by government funding; they don't pay a penny on it. Here, whenever the TTC needs capital, the government doesn't provide them with anything. (A lot of this is the fault of Mike Harris, but that's for a later time.)

Whenever people compare Toronto and Hong Kong (or others), it just really irks me, because what I have wrote above is fundamental to the two cities. As much as I would promote a privatized TTC system, I must honestly also admit to myself that it just won't work for the public. Hong Kong's MTR never wanted to extend its system into places that don't make money. Those people who didn't benefit from MTR's trains didn't like that; they complained; they didn't get anything. Do we really want a part of the city where Torontonians have no access to transit? Whenever things become privatized, the core objective is to make money, and to cut places where it doesn't. It's as simple as that. (If this can be fixed, I wholeheartedly support privatizing the TTC, pronto.)

(Oh, regarding the Presto and other smart-card devices to access public transit: I don't have the references off hand, but I know and have read reports by the relevant cities that smart-card machines actually lose money. The cities make money off of other aspects of the public transit business. No cities in the world make money from these devices. None. The TTC is reluctant to use smart-card devices for this primary reason. Do you really think Toronto wants to be behind the rest of the world -- really? Of course not. But with the cost right now, it just isn't cost efficient to use smart-card devices. I'm not saying that the TTC shouldn't adopt it -- I love such devices -- but I just wanted to point out the cost issue that most people don't think of, or ignore.)

What really needs to happen is a blend of both public/government and privatized partnership for the TTC. There also needs to be zoned fares -- this is a reality. Back in the 60s, the TTC made a lot of money. But ever since the metro/city governments forced it to expand into the suburbs, it hasn't been as successful since. I also think there should be separate "companies" that overlook each of the streetcars, buses, or subways. In every other city, buses and subways are separate. Yes, you can use the same Oyster/Octopus card, but they are fundamentally two different businesses. Separately businesses run buses and subways in both London and Hong Kong, for example. Pricing co-ordination will be a factor, but the TTC simply can not handle everything and make money. It's not efficient; it's simply against basic economic principles.

I also wanted to mention that in London, cash fares are now 4 pounds, which is about $7.00 CAD. For one ride, people! Of course, Transport for London can make money. (But I must admit this is also reasonable based on their high cost of living, with food, etc...) In Hong Kong, if you take the bus or subway only, it's cheap, as cheap as $1.50 CAD. But combine both, and go the distance that is equal from Scarborough to Etobicoke, (like, Hong Kong Island to Yuen Long in the new territorites), the fares goes up to $6.00. The TTC absolutely needs zoned fares; low-density areas simply can not subsidize high-density ones if the TTC wants to be a world-class transit system.

So this is pretty much it. I don't really have a conclusion, since my reason for posting is to mainly get my thoughts out there. But yeah, whenever people compare other cities with Toronto, this really irks me. Apples to oranges, people! Simply having travelled to London or Hong Kong vacation and having used their subway does not make you knowledgeable about the issue. Yes, you are entitled to it, and I respect it. But the fact is that saying something like, "Hong Kong has the Octopus, Toronto needs to get with the times", is my number one pet peeve.

I love the TTC. It's not perfect by any means, but the fact is that, whatever politics/economics behind the it, the TTC is one of the most reliable and truly "public" transit systems in the world. Lots of issues to fix (which I haven't gone into in this post), but please don't bash it without truly understanding the issues underlying it all.

euges720

 

[lead82]

I think many people, myself included on this forum support public transit and the TTC. I think the criticisms of the TTC are fair in certain aspects. The management of this city and the TTC are an absolute failure. The TTC is NOT a reliable system as the service has gotten much worse with more congestion. This is especially felt on the buses and subway where service crawls and there are daily delays. Second, the subway is rotting away. The stations are dirty and disgusting. While there are many problems of funding, the TTC has done a terrible job to manage cost. It prioritizes subway extensions to open fields instead if advocating for downtown lines. The union must be dealt with to improve customer service, pride in the system and the ability to modernize and remove redundant positions such as fare collectors and 2nd attendants on trains. The system is in a state of continual shabbiness and disrepair. Projects are delayed by years and years. It is this stigma that prevents governments in investing in the TTC as it is seen as a waste of money. Finally, Toronto has a love affair with the car only because the TTC has awful rapid transit coverage unless one is heading downtown. Give us the coverage of Chicago, Stockholm or Moscow and watch the ridership explode. Sadly, just like the Leafs, the TTC is another city organization that is doomed to continually fail us.

 

[kettal]

Welcome to the forum, euges720.

The integration between buses and subways on TTC is very highly regarded on international terms and is a big reason for its success. Yes I do consider TTC to be a successful, efficient, and well used service. It annoys me how many locals do not understand how good it actually is.

 

[JayBee]

The TTC can kiss my ass to be honest.

I don't pay $3 a trip to:

a) get verbally abused by staff
b) sit in trains with no A/C
c) deal with delays on a daily basis (even during non-rush hour times)
d) deal with strikes every few years
e) wait 15 mins for a bus that's supposed to arrive every 5 mins
f) deal with having to switch trains for no reason


I've used public transportation in other cities and have never come away saying "Geez, Toronto's got this place beat!" it's usually the opposite. There are huge flaws with the TTC and their solution is to add buses. Overpaid staff? Add buses. Customer Service issues? Add buses. Subway delays? Add buses!!!

Edit: Funding is a huge part of the equation. If the TTC had all the funding in the world, I'm confident they would find a way to squander it.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Why does the TTC have one of safest records in North America? They keep winning APTA rewards, last one was a Gold Award in 2009. The American Public Transportation Association (APTA) presented the TTC with its highest safety honour for systems operating 30 million or more passenger trips. See this link.

As for JayBee, I guess his car never breaks down as it ages and is used 20 hours a day.

 

[Justin10000]

When I travel, I ALWAYS compare other systems to Toronto's. :rolls eye:

 

[nfitz]

The TTC can kiss my ass to be honest.

I don't see the need for such extreme rudeness and verbal abuse.

I don't pay $3 a trip to:

Who pays $3 a trip?

a) get verbally abused by staff

While such things happen occasionally, they are unusual. I much more frequently see staff being verbally abused by clients. Given the verbal abuse you've already inflicted on us here already today, without any reason, then perhaps there is a reason you encounter this.

b) sit in trains with no A/C

Then change trains. 94% of the almost 700 subway cars are air-conditioned. With 420 new cars on order to replace the 44 cars that are too old to have A/C (and 262 others that already do), there will soon be all trains with A/C. BTW, how do you think people managed back in the 1960s and 1970s before trains were air-conditioned?

c) deal with delays on a daily basis (even during non-rush hour times)
d) deal with strikes every few years
e) wait 15 mins for a bus that's supposed to arrive every 5 mins
f) deal with having to switch trains for no reason

The over-inflated sense of entitlement you have is shocking.

I've used public transportation in other cities and have never come away saying "Geez, Toronto's got this place beat!" it's usually the opposite. There are huge flaws with the TTC and their solution is to add buses. Overpaid staff? Add buses. Customer Service issues? Add buses. Subway delays? Add buses!!!

Then you are walking around with blinders on. The system is cleaner than New York City, more frequent than Montreal, has better connecting stations than Vancouver, and pretty much beats any other system on the continent for frequency and extend of service.

And strikes .... good grief, they are a monthly affair in London, in Paris ... and I'm sure you remember those 4-week transit strikes in the 1980s ... not to mention the recent extensive one in Ottawa! Get real!

 

[JayBee]

As for JayBee, I guess his car never breaks down as it ages and is used 20 hours a day.

If my 20+ year old car had a tendency to break down frequently....I'd buy a new car instead of putting trying to patchwork everything. Again this goes back to Funding which is not solely the TTC's fault.

 

[JayBee]

I don't see the need for such extreme rudeness and verbal abuse.

Who pays $3 a trip?

Has there been a price drop that I'm unaware of?

While such things happen occasionally, they are unusual. I much more frequently see staff being verbally abused by clients. Given the verbal abuse you've already inflicted on us here already today, without any reason, then perhaps there is a reason you encounter this.

Unusual? Yea right. I've been abused on countless occasions... I've seen staff abuse others as well. Obviously if you are abused you must be doing something to deserve it....textbook response

Then change trains. 94% of the almost 700 subway cars are air-conditioned. With 420 new cars on order to replace the 44 cars that are too old to have A/C (and 262 others that already do), there will soon be all trains with A/C. BTW, how do you think people managed back in the 1960s and 1970s before trains were air-conditioned?

That's besides the point, all the cars should be A/C'd.

The over-inflated sense of entitlement you have is shocking.

Right, I just like to hold people accountable.

Then you are walking around with blinders on. The system is cleaner than New York City, more frequent than Montreal, has better connecting stations than Vancouver, and pretty much beats any other system on the continent for frequency and extend of service.

And strikes .... good grief, they are a monthly affair in London, in Paris ... and I'm sure you remember those 4-week transit strikes in the 1980s ... not to mention the recent extensive one in Ottawa! Get real!

Cleaner? OK, I'll give you that....not by much though. New York City's subways/infrastructure trumps Toronto's in virtually every category. Montreal's may not be as frequent but the delays are not as frequent either...the infrastructure is better as well.

Do you work for the TTC?

 

[nfitz]

Has there been a price drop that I'm unaware of?

Yes ... it's called the token. It was introduced recently ... just after World War II.

Unusual? Yea right. I've been abused on countless occasions... I've seen staff abuse others as well. Obviously if you are abused you must be doing something to deserve it....textbook response

Not textbook response ... but you come here and abuse us ... and then say something really bizarre about being counlessly abused by the same TTC staff most of us deal with quite pleasantly every day. Sure there are a few bad apples ... and a few bad riders.

Clearly if you are regularly abused by TTC staff, and the rest of us aren't, then you are the problem. Your language and attitude here has demonstrated that. I guess you can give it, but you can't take it.

 

[JayBee]

Yes ... it's called the token. It was introduced recently ... just after World War II.

Really?
TTC Fare Prices

Not textbook response ... but you come here and abuse us ... and then say something really bizarre about being counlessly abused by the same TTC staff most of us deal with quite pleasantly every day. Sure there are a few bad apples ... and a few bad riders.

Clearly if you are regularly abused by TTC staff, and the rest of us aren't, then you are the problem. Your language and attitude here has demonstrated that. I guess you can give it, but you can't take it.

"abuse us"? Who did I abuse?

If you look at my posts in this forum, I'm a pretty PG and think I'm generally pleasant. I've never given staff atitudes. Let's go back to a few weeks ago....The driver made a short turn without warning. I got off the streetcar and kindly asked the bus driver "excuse me, what is the detour route?" she didn't even look at me and screamed "ARE YOU IN OR ARE YOU OUT?". I calmly responded "can you let me knwo where you're going, I'm confused". She slammed the door on my face and kept driving. Time before that, the driver cursed me out because I got on the wrong bus and he wouldn't open the doors when I asked him to (keep in mind he had not pulled away from the stop).

It's very convenient for you to dismiss my run-ins with TTC staff as me having the attitude problem. I mean, people do the same thing with rape victims, or victims of domestic violence, etc. Because you don't experience something, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've seen drivers assault people but I guess you will dismiss that as well.

 

[golodhendil]

Re: the OP - I agree with a lot of what you say, but just wanted to add a few points/clarifications/criticisms of my own:

Funding between the two cities for public transit is entirely different. Hong Kong's MTR promotes itself as a private business, but it does receive funding from two main sources. One is from their property developments (they develop malls and high-rise apartments), and their revenue from such sources more than outweighs their cost of building the rails. The MTR is perhaps the most efficient -- and nicest -- transit system I have ever been on. But, I don't like it for two reasons. It's like saying a kid can get an A in math, but a C in English, and a parent says it's okay, because the two balances out in the end. MTR should make money in both its property and public transit enterprises. And, if you think about it, MTR can't build houses without rails, but it can't build rails without their houses either; simply put, it really doesn't know what its main business objectives is most of the time.

Second, honestly, whenever asks for funding from the Hong Kong government, they get it, a lot of it. Their planned extension on Hong Kong Island and throughout the northwest territories is principally funded by government funding; they don't pay a penny on it. Here, whenever the TTC needs capital, the government doesn't provide them with anything.

The point about government funding is a good one, one that I have made several times on this forum whenever people use HK as an example of a model for "privatized" transit - it's not, at least not the rail service. Much of the capital cost for construction came, and still comes, from the government. Construction costs aside, however, transit in HK does make money regardless of their property business - MTR by a huge margin every year, the bus companies not as consistently profitable but still usually are. Tying property development business to support/subsidize transit development is also a very good idea, IMO, one that many other places in the world such as Japan have used to make transit sustainable, and one that I have advocated many times regarding "wasted spaces" on the TTC right now such as the various yards.

Hong Kong's MTR never wanted to extend its system into places that don't make money. Those people who didn't benefit from MTR's trains didn't like that; they complained; they didn't get anything. Do we really want a part of the city where Torontonians have no access to transit?

To be fair, every urban area in HK dense enough for rail has rail either existing or under construction / planned (with the notable exception of Siu Sai Wan). The areas not served by rail are rural enclaves which are probably better off without the highly intrusive and environmentally destructive construction needed to bring rail there, and which have no lack of bus or minibus service (thanks to government regulations when assigning franchises that prevent the companies from simply withdrawing or cutting back routes when improfitable).

I don't have the references off hand, but I know and have read reports by the relevant cities that smart-card machines actually lose money. The cities make money off of other aspects of the public transit business. No cities in the world make money from these devices. None.

First, why should a payment medium designed to streamline fare payment, fare integration and minimize fare evasion necessarily be expected to "make money"? Besides, as many people on the board have pointed out before, public service should not be (always) about making money, but instead about providing the most efficient and effective service to the people. And fyi, Octopus makes tens of millions of HKD in profit each year, though granted Octopus is much more far-reaching into the retail payment business than anything Presto could ever hope to or would ever aspire to.

In every other city, buses and subways are separate.

This is demonstratably not true, and is something you should know if you have "been to pretty much everywhere in the world (literally)".

I also wanted to mention that in London, cash fares are now 4 pounds, which is about $7.00 CAD. For one ride, people! Of course, Transport for London can make money. (But I must admit this is also reasonable based on their high cost of living, with food, etc...) In Hong Kong, if you take the bus or subway only, it's cheap, as cheap as $1.50 CAD. But combine both, and go the distance that is equal from Scarborough to Etobicoke, (like, Hong Kong Island to Yuen Long in the new territorites), the fares goes up to $6.00. The TTC absolutely needs zoned fares; low-density areas simply can not subsidize high-density ones if the TTC wants to be a world-class transit system.

One of the longest and most expensive possible combination of ordinary (non-airport, non-disneyland, non-racecourse, non-border crossing) day time bus routes in HK, a trip from Tin Shui Wai in the northwest to Siu Sai Wan in the southeast, costs $27.5 HKD (about $3.60 CAD), and would cost even a bit less if using a combination of bus/minibus + MTR. This is still a lot for the poorest working class in a city that is just debating whether to set the minimum wage at $25 or $30 HKD/hr ($3.50-$4 CAD), but it is by no means as exorbitant as you are suggesting.

Alright, back to your regularly scheduled squabbling...

 

[picard102]

Really?
TTC Fare Prices

Pretty sure the suggestion is that everyone should be buying tokens and not paying for single fares, which is absurd.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Pretty sure the suggestion is that everyone should be buying tokens and not paying for single fares, which is absurd.

Or the daily/weekly/monthly pass, after calculating the frequency of use. If you only use the TTC once or twice a month, you should still get tokens since they are still good after price increases... at least until the tokens get replaced by Presto and/or smart card technology.

 

[JayBee]

Pretty sure the suggestion is that everyone should be buying tokens and not paying for single fares, which is absurd.

But some people don't require 4-5 tokens.

The fact of the matter is, a single fare is $3 which is at the high end of the spectrum when you look at transit fares around the world...and we're still using 20 year old buses and 30 year old trains. The system is old and outdated. Why are we still using tokens?