[ssiguy2]

I've always stated that much of TC was a good idea but Toronto couldn't have executed it more poorly if they tried.

The Finch & Sheppard lines have stops so close together that they have turned a potential semi-rapid transit system into an improved local service route. The LRT won't be any faster or more reliable than a BLine BRT but cost 10 times as much. As for Eglinton the whole line should be grade separated. Metrolinx says they don't have the money but this LRT is coming in with subway costs but of the 4 potential technologies, heavy rail, LRT, SkyTrain, monorail, LRT will be the most expensive to run, have the lowest capacity, and the most expensive stations due to having to have larger stations for the same capacity.

LRt as rapid transit wasn't brought back for decoration but because it was an affordable alternative to heavy rail but Egliinton costs have gotten rid of those potential savings............it's the worst possible technology they could have chosen. It will also be the most expensive and lowest capacity technology for the SRT as it requires totally new stations due to increased height needed for the stations unlike heavy rail, SkyTrain, or monorail.

The most cost effective idea is to make the entire Eglinton line SkyTrain elevated to DM and then underground to BC. The money, time, and disruption they would save by just upgrading the SRT to handle MK111 cars would be enough to totally grade separate the line to DM.

 

[andrewpmk]

Short unfinished lines like Sheppard do count. It hasn't met the estimates for what was built, and revised estimates for 2031 for a completed line prepared recently for TTC are much, much lower than the original ones. I expect it wouldn't take long to find other examples.

However, I don't see what this has to do with Eglinton. The forecasts have never supported subway, and barely support LRT, even the 2031 service to the Airport Corporate Centre, which was factored into the studies. There's no point building subway on Eglinton when LRT more than meets the capacity. Even LRT could meet the entire load from the 401 in rush hour, if you diverted 100% of the traffic.

How much of this is due to the fact that North York Centre has seen little job growth for 20 years due to high commercial tax rates following amalgamation? Remember that the downtown core also saw hardly any new office space for 20 years until the Bay-Adelaide Centre was built, due to high tax rates. The job growth went to Mississauga instead, creating the huge traffic jams on the 401/Gardiner going that direction, this is why building a transit line to the airport area is so important in my view. Non-grade separated LRT cannot possibly handle the traffic volumes of a collector-express highway such as the 401.

If North York Centre had seen job growth rates similar to what we saw in the 1980s in the last 20 years, the Sheppard subway would not be underused, if it were extended to its originally planned length.

 

[BurlOak]

The benefits of LRT is that it is cheaper to build at grade level and that it can be flexible and go underground where there is not enough road space at grade.

I generally agree with the above, if the length of the tunnel is small relative to the total length. For FWLRT, the tunnel is maybe 1km at most on a 12km line. There it seems to make sense - although on Finch there are questions about whether BRT would be more appropriate. Similar things can be said about WWLRT and SMLRT.

For Eglinton, about 80% of the current 30km stretch is grade separated and about 50% is very expensive tunnel. Even after the second stage, over 60% will be grade separated. At some stage, someone should have realized that this line should have been completely grade separated and designed it that way. Now we are scrambling and weigh
ng our options to do what is right, or what we have committed to.

It eliminates transfers and makes the user experience easier.

Unfortunately, I think the current plan is to have a forced transfer for all trains at Kennedy. Not even half the trains continuing from SRT to Eglinton.

 

[sixrings]

I generally agree with the above, if the length of the tunnel is small relative to the total length. For FWLRT, the tunnel is maybe 1km at most on a 12km line. There it seems to make sense - although on Finch there are questions about whether BRT would be more appropriate. Similar things can be said about WWLRT and SMLRT.

For Eglinton, about 80% of the current 30km stretch is grade separated and about 50% is very expensive tunnel. Even after the second stage, over 60% will be grade separated. At some stage, someone should have realized that this line should have been completely grade separated and designed it that way. Now we are scrambling and weigh
ng our options to do what is right, or what we have committed to.



Unfortunately, I think the current plan is to have a forced transfer for all trains at Kennedy. Not even half the trains continuing from SRT to Eglinton.

But if it were subway then lrt then srt it would be two transfers versus 1... if the line goes east of kennedy on eglinton it will be longer as well..

 

[innsertnamehere]

not a forced transfer, but rather they will make you wait until a train running all the way to kennedy arrives. it should operate like the current subway trains, with the terminus mentioned so that the user can chose which trains he gets on. (a user travelling to kennedy would wait for the next train if a train comes into the station that is only travelling to Don Mills)

edit: misunderstood what you were saying

 

[smallspy]

For Eglinton, about 80% of the current 30km stretch is grade separated and about 50% is very expensive tunnel.

18km for the line, and about 12km of that is buried. That's 66% by my math.

Even after the second stage, over 60% will be grade separated.

Another ~12km to the airport, about 2km of which will be grade separated.

That makes the totals 30km, 14km of which is grade separated. Now, my math is not great, but I think that is less than half.

At some stage, someone should have realized that this line should have been completely grade separated and designed it that way.

Yup. Maybe in about 100 years. Maybe more.

The problem is that you don't build transit systems for 100 years in the future. By the time they are ready to be used at capacity, you've completely rebuilt the systems, not to mention paid (over and over and over) for maintenance on them.

Of course, the beauty of building a system like they are going to be building on and under Eglinton is that you can do it incrementally as needed. And while it may cost a bit more in terms of construction, you will save a lot on maintenance over the years.

Unfortunately, I think the current plan is to have a forced transfer for all trains at Kennedy. Not even half the trains continuing from SRT to Eglinton.

Nothing to think about - the TTC has said that trains will not run through. And considering what the passenger demands will be on either side of Kennedy Station, there isn't anything wrong with that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Eug]

They put up some fencing at Eglinton and Bessborough (just east of Bayview):

 

[BurlOak]

18km for the line, and about 12km of that is buried. That's 66% by my math.

My math: Jane to Kennedy = 20 km, SRT Kennedy to Sheppard = 10 km. Total Length of Phase 1 = 30 km
Median LRT from Ferrand (East of Don Mills) to Ionview (West of Kennedy) = 5 km. 15 km burried along Eglinton and 10 km grade-separated SRT.

Totals: Burried = 15/30 = 50%. Grade Separated = 25/30 = 83%

Another ~12km to the airport, about 2km of which will be grade separated.

Also, 2 km grade-separated to Malvern (some of which is burried, but I wont count it)

Totals: Burried = 15/44 = 34%. Grade Separated = 29/44 = 66%

Yup. Maybe in about 100 years. Maybe more.

If you let transit riders go where they want to go, and not add unnecessary transfers, then the timeframe would actually be much less. Possibly as soon as immediately, or as long as the time for the DRL to open - which I suppose could be 100 years but I very much doubt it.


Another thing to look at is how much would it cost to improve the transit line. After all, the underground portions at Don Mills and Kennedy were added to improve the performance of the transit line. This 5km missing piece of Median LRT would probably cost less than $500M extra over the Median LRT. On a $6B line, this is less than 10% extra. For the final configuration, the extra needed to grade-separate (note that much of the Richview Corridor can be built at-grade) the stretch from Jane to Mississauga (Commerce Blvd) would probably be another $500M or so. On an $8B line, this would be in the range of 10-15% extra.

 

[RocketAppliances]

They put up some fencing at Eglinton and Bessborough (just east of Bayview):

There was what I presume to be soil testing (drill rig) happening on Friday.

 

[smallspy]

My math: Jane to Kennedy = 20 km, SRT Kennedy to Sheppard = 10 km. Total Length of Phase 1 = 30 km
Median LRT from Ferrand (East of Don Mills) to Ionview (West of Kennedy) = 5 km. 15 km burried along Eglinton and 10 km grade-separated SRT.

Totals: Burried = 15/30 = 50%. Grade Separated = 25/30 = 83%

Who's talking about the SRT conversion and extension? That's an entirely different project, with a different set of goals, and an different budget. It doesn't have anything to do with Eglinton, and would be built regardless of what happened with Eglinton.

Also, 2 km grade-separated to Malvern (some of which is burried, but I wont count it)

Totals: Burried = 15/44 = 34%. Grade Separated = 29/44 = 66%

Again, different project.

If you let transit riders go where they want to go, and not add unnecessary transfers, then the timeframe would actually be much less. Possibly as soon as immediately, or as long as the time for the DRL to open - which I suppose could be 100 years but I very much doubt it.

Except that the TTC and Metrolinx have done the studies, and you haven't. Now, if you go ahead and commission a study that would indicate that you aren't just pulling numbers out of thin air, it may be worth talking about.

And as for transfers, you have to transfer at some point. It isn't feasible for every single commuter to have a subway line from his office to his house. At some point you need to build in a transfer to a mode or series of modes that carry smaller loads more efficiently, be it LRT, streetcar, bus or jitney.

Another thing to look at is how much would it cost to improve the transit line. After all, the underground portions at Don Mills and Kennedy were added to improve the performance of the transit line. This 5km missing piece of Median LRT would probably cost less than $500M extra over the Median LRT. On a $6B line, this is less than 10% extra. For the final configuration, the extra needed to grade-separate (note that much of the Richview Corridor can be built at-grade) the stretch from Jane to Mississauga (Commerce Blvd) would probably be another $500M or so. On an $8B line, this would be in the range of 10-15% extra.

"Improve the performance" is a pretty vague target to aim for. How are they improving it, exactly? Shorter walks for customers? Reduce traffic congestion on the streets above? They are building underground stations at those two locations for a variety of reasons, but "improve the performance" was not one that came up.

As for your numbers, considering the median cost of tunnelling a line seems to be in the region of $250mil/km including stations while the cost of an in-median line is around 1/5th of that, I'd like to know how you manage to think that they can build another 5km for only another $500mil.

Then, despite all this what-if-ing, there is the final, and most important question: where would you get this money to make it happen? And is the TTC going to be responsible for the additional maintenance costs of the line? Remember, that $8.4bil has to go to all of the projects - Sheppard East, Finch West, converting the SRT and the Eglinton Line, not to mention buying the equipment and building the maintenance facilities. There isn't an infinitely deep bucket of loonies at the end of a rainbow with which to keep adding and adding to the scope of projects.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[BurlOak]

Who's talking about the SRT conversion and extension? That's an entirely different project, with a different set of goals, and an different budget. It doesn't have anything to do with Eglinton, and would be built regardless of what happened with Eglinton.

Many people on this forum have suggested connecting Eglinton to SRT. It actually will be connected but not for revenue service. In terms of budget, it is all part of the +/- $8B that is part of Phase 1.

Except that the TTC and Metrolinx have done the studies, and you haven't. Now, if you go ahead and commission a study that would indicate that you aren't just pulling numbers out of thin air, it may be worth talking about.

Actually Metrolinx did the study when Ford proposed the connection of SRT with Eglinton as part of his Memorandum of understanding. I think the number was over 10,000 per hour, and that was without a DRL. And making the line elevated as opposed to underground will do nothing to reduce this number

And as for transfers, you have to transfer at some point. It isn't feasible for every single commuter to have a subway line from his office to his house. At some point you need to build in a transfer to a mode or series of modes that carry smaller loads more efficiently, be it LRT, streetcar, bus or jitney.

I am sure most SRT passengers are forced to transfer at Kennedy. The number of passengers approaching Kennedy from the SRT is probably well over half of all passengers getting on the B-D at Kennedy. I think the ridership on SRT was well above 5000 per hour. If we can get these people off of the B-D (where the majority invariably transfer at Yonge - and not Pape, since it will be difficult and expensive to convert Pape into a major interchange station) and onto the top of the DRL, it would well be worth it.
]
I am not suggesting the Eglinton line needs to head to the downtown to everyone's office, I am just suggesting that it not stop at a location where ridership is still very high. I thought about continuing the ECLRT along Eglinton to Kinsgston Road, but the ridership is so much higher on the SRT that it obviously must continue toward STC.

"Improve the performance" is a pretty vague target to aim for. How are they improving it, exactly? Shorter walks for customers? Reduce traffic congestion on the streets above? They are building underground stations at those two locations for a variety of reasons, but "improve the performance" was not one that came up.

To me, having high numbers of passengers (at DM and Kennedy) exiting the ECLRT at grade would cause disruptions to vehicle traffic, but it would also cause problems for passengers switching from the median to the underground line. I agree that performance is a vague term, but it is obvious what performance improvements are when you see them.

As for your numbers, considering the median cost of tunnelling a line seems to be in the region of $250mil/km including stations while the cost of an in-median line is around 1/5th of that, I'd like to know how you manage to think that they can build another 5km for only another $500mil.

Actually, I think the cost of the burred part of ECLRT is closer to $350M. Using your numbers, the in-median LRT is about $50M /km (although I think every single Transit City line is actually much more than that), The means an elevated line would have to come in at about $150M /km to add up to the $500M. Vancouver did this for a line that was 60% buried and 40% elevated.

I think you are still referring to the Ford plan. Even Ford, I believe, said that the line should be buried or elevated. The fully buried option was pursued just to prove that the "Ford" concept was prohibitively expensive.

Then, despite all this what-if-ing, there is the final, and most important question: where would you get this money to make it happen? And is the TTC going to be responsible for the additional maintenance costs of the line? Remember, that $8.4bil has to go to all of the projects - Sheppard East, Finch West, converting the SRT and the Eglinton Line, not to mention buying the equipment and building the maintenance facilities. There isn't an infinitely deep bucket of loonies at the end of a rainbow with which to keep adding and adding to the scope of projects.

If the extension of the tunnel from Laird to Don Mills going to be free. Presumably, Metrolinx will say that the extra expense was needed to make the line "perform better". Then the money will have to be found, either by simplifying the design of some stations, or utilizing the soon to be announced Metrolinx funding options, or deferring the highly controversial SELRT. Maybe the Province, or the City, can kick in this small amount. Although the maintenance costs of the elevated stations (note there would be no additional underground stations) would be a bit higher than the in-median stops, but ridership would also be significantly higher.

 

[Rainforest]

I believe that the extra cost of grade-separate line between Don Mills and Kennedy will be in the range of $500 million if elevated, or $1B if tunneled.

Either way, this is not a trivial amount.

But the travel time reduction will be fairly trivial. For the 5.5 km long street-median section (23 kph), travel time would be 14.3 min. In a tunnel or guideway (32 kph), travel time would be 10.3 min.

 

[nfitz]

But the travel time reduction will be fairly trivial. For the 5.5 km long street-median section (23 kph), travel time would be 14.3 min. In a tunnel or guideway (32 kph), travel time would be 10.3 min.

I think you've overestimated the street-median section. It might well be 5.5 km between the portals, however east of portal near Don Mills Road, there's no roadways crossing the LRT track until at least 1.4 km further east at Swift (Wynford is already grade-separated) ... and if they have any sense, they won't let traffic cross at Swift, and the first actual intersection is 1.8 km further east at Bermondsey. Though if they had any sense they'd eliminate the unnecessary Ferrand station, and Lebovic.

 

[Voltz]

I think you've overestimated the street-median section. It might well be 5.5 km between the portals, however east of portal near Don Mills Road, there's no roadways crossing the LRT track until at least 1.4 km further east at Swift (Wynford is already grade-separated) ... and if they have any sense, they won't let traffic cross at Swift, and the first actual intersection is 1.8 km further east at Bermondsey. Though if they had any sense they'd eliminate the unnecessary Ferrand station, and Lebovic.

There are the two ramps for the DVP, and the current plan is to de-grade separate Wynford, which I think is dumb.

But there are worse ways to spend money than to go under the busy intersections of Victoria Park and Eglinton Square

 

[leopetr]

... when Ford proposed the connection of SRT with Eglinton as part of his Memorandum of understanding.

Why do you keep saying Ford proposed this? The ability to run trains through has been part of the proposed Kennedy station design since the first Eglinton LRT study. Unless I missed an actual design change (as in, new station design drawing), what TTC keeps vacillating about is whether they'll use the connection for revenue service or not.