[gweed123]

This discussion should be continued on a national transit strategy thread.

I agree that a separate thread could be made for that, but I think that a NTS does play an important role in the future of Metrolinx, especially when it comes to working out funding.

As for HSR, the only real overlap between that and Metrolinx is that for most of the HSR route through the GTHA it's going to be sharing Metrolinx-owned ROWs. So discussion about one could have an impact on the other.

 

[doady]

Metrolinx taking over the TTC would just be a bad idea. It would result in transit service in the city beign reduced in favour of increased service in the suburbs. Even the TTC alone is bad enough. You can see downtown transit routes are slow and overcrowdedbecause the TTC's resources are being used instead to have empty buses running throughout Scarborough and North York. Imagine if they had to fund provide transit in the 905 as well.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Metrolinx taking over the TTC would just be a bad idea. It would result in transit service in the city beign reduced in favour of increased service in the suburbs. Even the TTC alone is bad enough. You can see downtown transit routes are slow and overcrowdedbecause the TTC's resources are being used instead to have empty buses running throughout Scarborough and North York. Imagine if they had to fund provide transit in the 905 as well.

100% agree with you. I really don't see any logical reason why the City of Toronto would want to have the TTC uploaded to Metolinx. At least not at the moment. If Metrolinx were to propose taking over the TTC today, I would expect nothing less than for City Council to fight it tooth and nail.

 

[BurlOak]

Metrolinx taking over the TTC would just be a bad idea. It would result in transit service in the city beign reduced in favour of increased service in the suburbs. Even the TTC alone is bad enough. You can see downtown transit routes are slow and overcrowdedbecause the TTC's resources are being used instead to have empty buses running throughout Scarborough and North York. Imagine if they had to fund provide transit in the 905 as well.

That is one of the advantages of taking over the subways only. I think it would be hard for Metrolinx to run frequent subway service in the suburbs when people are heading downtown. Would the Sheppard subway have all day service at 2 minutes headway - I don't think so. Would subways short turn at St. Clair West, but it being the southbound trains short-turning and heading back north to create half the frequency for the downtown - again, I highly doubt it.

It seems like reasonable logic to me. Local roads bring people to the high capacity freeways - which are run by the Province. Local buses bring people to the high capacity subways (and commuter rail) - which are run by the province.

 

[gweed123]

Metrolinx taking over the TTC would just be a bad idea. It would result in transit service in the city beign reduced in favour of increased service in the suburbs. Even the TTC alone is bad enough. You can see downtown transit routes are slow and overcrowdedbecause the TTC's resources are being used instead to have empty buses running throughout Scarborough and North York. Imagine if they had to fund provide transit in the 905 as well.

Translink manages to do it just fine...

 

[innsertnamehere]

while that makes sense, it would make the funding situation even worse. I would expect huge municipal tax hikes as the TTC ticket subsidisation would suddenly plummet, requiring either large budget increases or a huge jump in ticket prices. the only real way to go from here is to create one gigantic transit agency covering the entire GTA, with smaller municipal portions serving as the bus feeder loops. Metrolinx would control everything but the bus routes and streetcars, but under the new single transit agency there would be "sub-groups" that the Municipalities would have a majority interest in. Metrolinx could provide these "mini-agencies" with a minimum subsidization based on some formula of population and ridership numbers, and demand minimum service on certian key routes. these municipalities would then be free to provide however much more service they desire on top of this "minimum service level". it would allow metrolinx to control key bus routes and the subway backbone, but still ensures the local buses can still maintain levels desirable to the township.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That is one of the advantages of taking over the subways only. I think it would be hard for Metrolinx to run frequent subway service in the suburbs when people are heading downtown. Would the Sheppard subway have all day service at 2 minutes headway - I don't think so. Would subways short turn at St. Clair West, but it being the southbound trains short-turning and heading back north to create half the frequency for the downtown - again, I highly doubt it.

It seems like reasonable logic to me. Local roads bring people to the high capacity freeways - which are run by the Province. Local buses bring people to the high capacity subways (and commuter rail) - which are run by the province.

The big problem with this is that Toronto will lose our 100% iteration between rapid transit and surface routes. The integration between the systems is one big, if not the biggest strengths of the TTC. When the systems are split you will inevitably see service quality decrease. I personally think that Metolinx should control all or none of the TTC.

 

[gweed123]

while that makes sense, it would make the funding situation even worse. I would expect huge municipal tax hikes as the TTC ticket subsidisation would suddenly plummet, requiring either large budget increases or a huge jump in ticket prices. the only real way to go from here is to create one gigantic transit agency covering the entire GTA, with smaller municipal portions serving as the bus feeder loops. Metrolinx would control everything but the bus routes and streetcars, but under the new single transit agency there would be "sub-groups" that the Municipalities would have a majority interest in. Metrolinx could provide these "mini-agencies" with a minimum subsidization based on some formula of population and ridership numbers, and demand minimum service on certian key routes. these municipalities would then be free to provide however much more service they desire on top of this "minimum service level". it would allow metrolinx to control key bus routes and the subway backbone, but still ensures the local buses can still maintain levels desirable to the township.

That's the route that I would like to see them take. From one of my posts on the previous page: "What I'd like to see is 7 different divisions within Metrolinx: Rapid Transit, Hamilton, Halton, Peel, York, Toronto, and Durham. Those last 6 would be responsible for local route planning within that region."

They would be quasi-independent, with planners focusing only on those areas to make sure the routes are properly responding to the needs of the area. There's no reason why a single transit authority can't also have a mind for local transit matters. As long as the front-end (what the customer sees) is consistent and easy to use, the back-end can be tailored to whatever generates the optimal result.

And having so many transit systems overlapping, despite the perception that it better caters to local demand, is a nightmare to navigate as soon as you have to transfer from one system to another. It's archaic, and it's not needed. I shouldn't have to change systems just because I cross over an imaginary line. Presto is going to help at least synchronize fares, but it won't help synchronize transit systems.

Create as many quasi-independent agencies under the Metrolinx umbrella as you want, but get them all under the Metrolinx banner.

 

[nfitz]

Translink manages to do it just fine...

Despite the service cuts? http://www.news1130.com/2012/09/15/translink-to-cut-50000-hours-of-service/

I'm surprised when I'm out there how crowded some bus routes are off-peak, leaving customers behind. They seem to be skimping on service.

 

[Hipster Duck]

That's the route that I would like to see them take. From one of my posts on the previous page: "What I'd like to see is 7 different divisions within Metrolinx: Rapid Transit, Hamilton, Halton, Peel, York, Toronto, and Durham. Those last 6 would be responsible for local route planning within that region."
...
Create as many quasi-independent agencies under the Metrolinx umbrella as you want, but get them all under the Metrolinx banner.

Other Metrolinx departments could include:

- Strategic Land Use Planning: works with regional land use planners to create coherent land use and urban design strategies around transit lines and especially in station area precincts.
- Bicycle planning: a small department that works with municipalities to streamline bike infrastructure, signage and bike-transit integration
- Roads planning: a department that coordinates with engineering services departments of municipalities to ensure that modifications to the regional road network are designed with transit in mind and meet the regional transportation plan.

 

[gweed123]

Despite the service cuts? http://www.news1130.com/2012/09/15/translink-to-cut-50000-hours-of-service/

I'm surprised when I'm out there how crowded some bus routes are off-peak, leaving customers behind. They seem to be skimping on service.

Toronto had service cuts too. YRT had to make big cuts on its non-VIVA routes. Can't really point to those one way or the other (either in support of or in objection to a regional transportation agency).

If anything, Translink has provided a roadmap of what measures to enact and what measures to avoid (based on the article, reliance on a gas tax as a major source of funding seems to be one to avoid). Seems to me the flaw isn't with the organization of Translink, it's with the funding. If you had a lot of people complaining that the routes don't really take them to where they want to go, then that would be something different.

 

[gweed123]

Other Metrolinx departments could include:

- Strategic Land Use Planning: works with regional land use planners to create coherent land use and urban design strategies around transit lines and especially in station area precincts.

Could add some extra teeth to the Places to Grow Act. Good idea.

- Bicycle planning: a small department that works with municipalities to streamline bike infrastructure, signage and bike-transit integration

A regional bike network would be a huge plus. In Ottawa, most of the major routes are managed by the NCC. That could be a model to look at.

- Roads planning: a department that coordinates with engineering services departments of municipalities to ensure that modifications to the regional road network are designed with transit in mind and meet the regional transportation plan.

I'd take it one step further and upload the former provincial highways within the GTHA to Metrolinx, that way they would have total control over them. Maybe even do a lateral transfer of the 400-series highways. The Gardiner and DVP mean just as much to the 905 as they do to Toronto. The responsibility of maintaining them should be shared. It would also make an eventual tolling scheme a lot easier.

 

[dunkalunk]

I'd take it one step further and upload the former provincial highways within the GTHA to Metrolinx, that way they would have total control over them. Maybe even do a lateral transfer of the 400-series highways. The Gardiner and DVP mean just as much to the 905 as they do to Toronto. The responsibility of maintaining them should be shared. It would also make an eventual tolling scheme a lot easier.

Wholeheartedly agree with everything just said here.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't see how transferring the 400 series highways over to Metrolinx would make tolling any easier.

Toronto has had the option of tolling the Gardiner and DVP for decades and still has yet to collect a nickel from them. Toronto could have easily had it's DRL and huge subway extensions complete by now if they had used the financial option available but never have so I don't see why they would all of a sudden have a change of heart.

If the City of Toronto before amalgamation couldn't get the balls to bring in tolls and then still can't with the new current city with more suburbanites then they sure as hell won't with Metrolinx, an organization that has shown itself to be far more concerned with suburban transportation and precious little with urban dwellers.

 

[k10ery]

Toronto has had the option of tolling the Gardiner and DVP for decades and still has yet to collect a nickel from them. Toronto could have easily had it's DRL and huge subway extensions complete by now if they had used the financial option available but never have so I don't see why they would all of a sudden have a change of heart.

?

The City does NOT have the power to toll highways - not even the ones it owns. Under the COTA, that requires a regulation from provincial Cabinet. That's an indication of how much this is a non-starter in Ontario right now (thanks to Harris and the 407, I think).