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Didn't the 2024 TTC budget show it open in late summer 2024 (September 2024).

And the 2023 TTC budget show it open in September 2023?

Wow that looks bad.

Hopefully with June 1st earliest possible opening means that we will get the opening some time this year........

Also does it really take a year to train an operator to drive a streetcar? People learn how to drive a bus in way less time than that and buses are way more complex to operate than a train (that runs automated 50% of the line).
 
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Can you share what happened here? Seemed like they had good momentum heading into the holidays.
could be a big big problem that they discovered and are trying to solve it behind closed doors.... feel free to correct me if im wrong....
 
Wow that looks bad.

Hopefully with June 1st earliest possible opening means that we will get the opening some time this year........

Also does it really take a year to train an operator to drive a streetcar? People learn how to drive a bus in way less time than that and buses are way more complex to operate than a train (that runs automated 50% of the line).
The problem is not the training, but finding the drivers to drive the line. I have seen a lot of training cars out training more than one driver at a time, but do they make the cut is unknown. At the same time, TTC is creating a new division for Line 5 and 6 where some of the existing drivers may not want to go to, let alone new ones.

Based on what I have seen posted by someone, TTC doesn't have the manpower for both lines at this time. I have asked the question "Does TTC have enough Drivers for both lines" a number of times and never see a true answers. I have seen next to no LRV's being tested on both lines and its been reported by others here that they are seeing it as well or a few cars on the line at given time.

It cost TTC money to have a pot full drivers sitting on their hands waiting for the lines to open. If TTC had the drivers for Line 5 the past 18 months to run the line, what would it had cost TTC to have this large group of drivers doing nothing for that timeframe?? $150,000 x 100 drivers = $15 million and that is not cheap at a guess of number of driver. Just think what it is cost ML to maintain the maintenance crews for the past 5 years.
 
Maybe they're waiting to fix that rough patch of track near kennedy before resuming testing.
There is no rough patch of track.

Is this TTC training or Metrolinx? Chow recently mentioned the TTC operators were up and ready.
TTC's operators. The first set of classes completed their training on the Eglinton Line, the second set had their classes interrupted about two-thirds of the way through. The third set of operators - the ones that were going to be the first ones trained on both Eglinton and Finch West - have had their training dates postponed indefinitely.

Can you share what happened here? Seemed like they had good momentum heading into the holidays.
Only in general terms.

The gist of it is two fold: that there was a major signal system failure on the Crosstown early November, and they have been trying to resolve it since then. This is what halted the second set of classes for training the operators. On Finch West, the TTC has still not been given full access to the line, as Metrolinx and Mosaic are still hashing things out.

Also does it really take a year to train an operator to drive a streetcar? People learn how to drive a bus in way less time than that and buses are way more complex to operate than a train (that runs automated 50% of the line).
If you'd been following, you'd know that no, it doesn't take a year to train an operator to drive a streetcar.

As well, these aren't streetcars, and it still doesn't take a year. The TTC requires 30 days of training, the same as a subway operator as - despite what a lot on here want to believe - the line is as complicated to operate as a subway.

Dan
 
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Now I’m wondering what was the timeline of when Phil announced the signal issue and when operator training was taking place. They said they found a bug in the software but I wonder if it got more severe to the point where training had to stop.
 
There is no rough patch of track.


TTC's operators. The first set of classes completed their training on the Eglinton Line, the second set had their classes interrupted about two-thirds of the way through. The third set of operators - the ones that were going to be the first ones trained on both Eglinton and Finch West - have had their training dates postponed indefinitely.


Only in general terms.

The gist of it is two fold: that there was a major signal system failure on the Crosstown early November, and they have been trying to resolve it since then. This is what halted the second set of classes for training the operators. On Finch West, the TTC has still not been given full access to the line, as Metrolinx and Mosaic are still hashing things out.


If you'd been following, you'd know that no, it doesn't take a year to train an operator to drive a streetcar.

As well, these aren't streetcars, and it still doesn't take a year. The TTC requires 30 days of training, the same as a subway operator as - despite what a lot on here want to believe - the line is as complicated to operate as a subway.

Dan
I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
 
With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.

I know Finch is using Thales, not sure which one Crosstown uses. But all these systems are done exactly as you mentioned. It's just the "adapting to peculiarities" is where it all goes wrong. I suspect this is the crosstown issue, but Metrolinx is an opaque box. Edmonton and London had issues integrating their "out of the box" systems for the Metro and Elizabeth lines respectively, so it's not unusual
 
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I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
The big issue, at least a while back, is that Eglinton effectively uses 2 separate signalling systems - one for the underground section (with ATO) and one for the surface section. Unlike most other systems in the world where such transitions take place in stations where trains can reboot their systems, on Eglinton this needs to be done on the fly, whilst the train is travelling between Laird and Sunnybrooke park.

Whether or not this is what's currently holding Eglinton back I don't know, but getting this to properly work was a major issue circa last year.
 
I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
As others have said, integration of multiple different types of signaling Above ground and below ground. Plus, the contract itself is just bad, you literally can't change anything. Everything is basically being settled behind the scenes in court.

Software bug? Lawsuit. signaling system failed? Lawsuit. concrete at station stop isn't right? lawsuit.
 
As others have said, integration of multiple different types of signaling Above ground and below ground. Plus, the contract itself is just bad, you literally can't change anything. Everything is basically being settled behind the scenes in court.

Software bug? Lawsuit. signaling system failed? Lawsuit. concrete at station stop isn't right? lawsuit.
With all the lawsuits for just the eglinton crosstown, they probably built them a dedicated courthouse 😂
 
Didn't the 2024 TTC budget show it open in late summer 2024 (September 2024). And the 2023 TTC budget show it open in September 2023?
Given the ongoing testing challenges and a lack of confidence in system reliability, legal disputes, and contractual complexities, my best guess is it opens in spring/summer 2026.

That'll be almost 20 years since then-Mayor David Miller announced the project.
 
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I was riding around on the REM today and thinking this is pretty neat, and will be pretty awesome when it gets up and going in Toronto. And then your posting. So I am almost scared to ask this question, as it may have been lashed out in UT about 357 pages before, but is the signalling system a “made in MetroLinx/TTC/Gov’t of Ontario” problem? With all of the similar transit lines running around the transit world, would they not be starting with some proven, licensed signalling system and then adapting to whatever peculiarities that might exist here? Or did we design from the ground up? And would these issues spill over to the Finch Line? My apologies in advance if you have covered this before.
I know Finch is using Thales, not sure which one Crosstown uses. But all these systems are done exactly as you mentioned. It's just the "adapting to peculiarities" is where it all goes wrong. I suspect this is the crosstown issue, but Metrolinx is an opaque box. Edmonton and London had issues integrating their "out of the box" systems for the Metro and Elizabeth lines respectively, so it's not unusual
The signal system being used on the Crosstown is a Bombardier (now Alstom) product called Cityflo 650 on the tunneled sections, and (IIRC) Cityflo 350 on the surface portion. It's an off-the-shelf product that has been used in many, many different cities on many, many different lines, although the 650 - the fully automated one providing ATC/ATO - frequently on unmanned "people mover" type of systems. But this is by no means it's first transit application, not by a long shot.

As pointed out, Finch West is using a version of Hitachi's (formerly Thales) Seltrac product. It's a totally different system, although it is functionally identical to the Cityflo 350 product - and nothing at all like the version of Seltrac formerly used on the Scarborough RT.

Because the two systems are completely independent from the other, there should be no possibility of any failure in one propagating to the other. I say should, as I don't know how the scheduling functions have been integrated into the two systems. If they are centrally controlled - like the existing subway lines - than there remains a potential common failure mode there.

As others have said, integration of multiple different types of signaling Above ground and below ground. Plus, the contract itself is just bad, you literally can't change anything. Everything is basically being settled behind the scenes in court.
Except that the migration point between the two systems is not the problem. In fact, it's worked flawlessly since the last upgrade in August/September.

Dan
 

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