[reaperexpress]

I was waiting for a WB streetcar at King and Church recently. The car that was coming left the Jarvis stop while the light at Church was green. As it approached, the countdown started. Of course, it slowed to a crawl and stopped before going through the intersection. Even though the light had been held for it, I guess the hold is only for a certain period, so it turned from green to red while the streetcar was stopped because of the TTC rules. It was infuriating.

Last I checked, the TSP at King & Church extends the Green/Walk for King streetcars before the start of the pedestrian countdown, then when the streetcar enters the intersection it starts the pedestrian countdown. This is specifically because it takes so long for streetcars to cross the intersection that you might as well let pedestrians keep walking.

Based on streetview, the TSP request detector seems to be just past the stop at Jarvis, so as long as it left the stop before the start of the countdown, TSP will hold the light in Green/Walk until the streetcar reaches the Church St (up to a maximum of 30 seconds).

However, TSP is disabled for streetcars that are less than 90 seconds behind the previous streetcar, to minimize bunching.

If you know it was at least 90 seconds behind the previous streetcar and you saw the streetcar cross the detector before the ped countdown started and yet the ped countdown still started while the streetcar was approaching, then something is broken with the TSP system. Or maybe the operator stopped too far forward and hit the detector before serving the stop. In that case they will miss the green because it will max out the extension before they reach the intersection.

If the signal briefly showed Green/Don't Walk that may have been due to a routine signal timing adjustment rather than the priority system. I doubt they would use Green/Don't Walk extensions at Church given the low speeds.

 

[nfitz]

Last I checked, the TSP at King & Church extends the Green/Walk for King streetcars before the start of the pedestrian countdown, then when the streetcar enters the intersection it starts the pedestrian countdown. This is specifically because it takes so long for streetcars to cross the intersection that you might as well let pedestrians keep walking.

Based on streetview, the TSP request detector seems to be just past the stop at Jarvis, so as long as it left the stop before the start of the countdown, TSP will hold the light in Green/Walk until the streetcar reaches the Church St (up to a maximum of 30 seconds).
View attachment 701531
However, TSP is disabled for streetcars that are less than 90 seconds behind the previous streetcar, to minimize bunching.

If you know it was at least 90 seconds behind the previous streetcar and you saw the streetcar cross the detector before the ped countdown started and yet the ped countdown still started while the streetcar was approaching, then something is broken with the TSP system. Or maybe the operator stopped too far forward and hit the detector before serving the stop. In that case they will miss the green because it will max out the extension before they reach the intersection.

If the signal briefly showed Green/Don't Walk that may have been due to a routine signal timing adjustment rather than the priority system. I doubt they would use Green/Don't Walk extensions at Church given the low speeds.

I think what it does is hold the light a bit longer if there's a streetcar stopped already at it's stop. Over top of it. Isn't it an antenna so it get's the radio signal from the streetcar ... or bus. Unless it's just the usual ones that detect automobiles that they've used since the 1970s or so.

They have this all over the city for bus routes as well. And judging by the increased frequencies that I see lights holding when they never used to, when there's no TTC vehicles about, there are people who have got some illicit devices that also trigger them.

This isn't transit priority (at least not what we are discussing here). And would be no use for making sure the light is already green when the streetcar gets there - you need far earlier information.

It wouldn't be any good on the far side stops you have on Finch either. I'm not sure there's even a near side stop at this location at Church and King! But I haven't got off there for a while - perhaps they moved it yet again.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think what it does is hold the light a bit longer if there's a streetcar stopped already at it's stop. Over top of it. Isn't it an antenna so it get's the radio signal from the streetcar ... or bus. Unless it's just the usual ones that detect automobiles that they've used since the 1970s or so.

They have two detectors. A "check in" detector (that's the one just past Jarvis that I showed) and a "check-out" detector just past the stop line. Sometimes there are also intermediate detectors to update the streetcar's ETA as it approaches (e.g. WB St Clair & Gunns). The streetcars have radio transponders on the bottom at the front and back that send signals picked up by the detectors. It's the same transponders they use to change track switches. I show it in practice in my TSP intro video:

They have this all over the city for bus routes as well. And judging by the increased frequencies that I see lights holding when they never used to, when there's no TTC vehicles about, there are people who have got some illicit devices that also trigger them.

I have driven a car with TSP but it was totally legitimate because I was genuinely testing the system. There would be no point in a private car to have a TSP transponder since the timing is based on buses/streetcars that stop at bus stops. So it would only really help you if you stop at every bus stop for 20 seconds or so. Which would obviously defeat the purpose.

There are plenty of other reasons a signal might stay green after the pedestrian phase counts down to zero.

This isn't transit priority (at least not what we are discussing here). And would be no use for making sure the light is already green when the streetcar gets there - you need far earlier information.

TSP isn't transit priority? Well I guess it depends what you consider transit priority then. This is a TSP detector and it extends the Walk light for King, or shortens the Walk light for Church. It is actually (just barely) far enough that Church can finish its countdown just before the streetcar arrives, because the streetcars have to stop at the track switch anyway. However, in general it's very rare that streetcars are detected early enough to actually terminate the cross street in time to avoid stopping. In fact, phase truncation is usually impossible anyway since at minor intersections the side street is already the minimum allowable duration for a pedestrian to cross. There's nothing the signal can do to make it any shorter. Especially on wide roads like St Clair or Finch.

It wouldn't be any good on the far side stops you have on Finch either. I'm not sure there's even a near side stop at this location at Church and King! But I haven't got off there for a while - perhaps they moved it yet again.

There is no near side stop at Church & King. That's why the TSP actually works well. The streetcars are detected after they leave the stop at Jarvis, and the TSP system actually has an accurate estimate of when they'll arrive at Church. At most intersections there's a near-side stop so the estimate is usually totally wrong, which causes the TSP to provide a green at completely the wrong time - which in some cases is actually later than it would have if there hadn't been a TSP action at all!

With far-side stops like on Finch the system can potentially work a lot better. Especially since the signals are much further apart so you get an accurate ETA much earlier.

 

[smallspy]

Last I checked, the TSP at King & Church extends the Green/Walk for King streetcars before the start of the pedestrian countdown, then when the streetcar enters the intersection it starts the pedestrian countdown.

Unless they've reconfigured it in the past year, it does not.

It extends the green traffic signal but the pedestrian signals count down at their normal times, and then will display a hold signal while the traffic signal remains green.

Dan

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I must say that the discourse about Finch the past two days has made me more frustrated than usual sitting in a streetcar behind red lights. It doesn’t have to be like this.

The momentum behind operational changes to Finch must extend to the greater streetcar network.

 

[DSCToronto]

Unless they've reconfigured it in the past year, it does not.

It extends the green traffic signal but the pedestrian signals count down at their normal times, and then will display a hold signal while the traffic signal remains green.

Dan

It MAY have been reconfigured in the summer when they completely rebuilt this intersection.

 

[smallspy]

It MAY have been reconfigured in the summer when they completely rebuilt this intersection.

How about the rest of the intersections, though?

The way I described it was the standard by which all of the TSB-configured intersections operated.

Dan

 

[urbanclient]

@reaperexpress made a great post about why the streetcar transit signal priority is so ineffective in practice, even if 'unconditional' when there is no bunching.

Of the ones that are actually on, most don't work well. But the reasons they don't work well vary by intersection type.

 

[reaperexpress]

Unless they've reconfigured it in the past year, it does not.

It extends the green traffic signal but the pedestrian signals count down at their normal times, and then will display a hold signal while the traffic signal remains green.

Okay, the last time I watched the TSP at King & Church was in 2019 so I guess they changed it since then. It was definitely extending in Walk then, not Solid Don't Walk. Maybe they changed it when streetcars started turning there, to clear out pedestrians to facilitate turns.

When you change a green extension from Walk to Solid Don't Walk, you need to either move the check-in detector closer to the intersection or add a delay time. Otherwise the green extension will happen too early and the streetcar will miss it, like @evandyk described in their original post.

How about the rest of the intersections, though?

The way I described it was the standard by which all of the TSB-configured intersections operated.

No it is not. Of the 440 intersections with TSP I have reviewed the operations at probably 300, and the vast majority of those extend the green in Walk, not in Solid Don't Walk. It's not even close, probably 3:1. And that includes intersections that extend in both Walk and Solid Don't Walk. (14 Walk + 16 SDW).

If you don't have any expertise or reputable source, please don't make factual claims like this. This is spreading misinformation, especially since you are generally an extremely knowledgeable forum contributor and people put a lot of faith in your responses.

 

[smallspy]

If you don't have any expertise or reputable source, please don't make factual claims like this. This is spreading misinformation, especially since you are generally an extremely knowledgeable forum contributor and people put a lot of faith in your responses.

My information came from personal experience and observations, and from people working at City Traffic Services (and specifically who worked in Wards 21 and 23).

It may be out of date, but it was factual at that time.

Dan

 

[reaperexpress]

My information came from personal experience and observations, and from people working at City Traffic Services (and specifically who worked in Wards 21 and 23).

It may be out of date, but it was factual at that time.

Dan

I guess you got false information, because that has never been factual. They have been primarily using Walk extensions ever since the TTC developed their first TSP system under the previous MTSS signal control system.

It makes sense that you trusted the information you received from what you perceived as a reputable source, but I have encountered plenty of people in Transportation Services who had little understanding of how TSP actually works.

 

[DSCToronto]

This is what is coming to TTC Board - from the Mayor

I was pleased to join TTC Chair Jamaal Myers at the launch of the Finch West LRT, and I know together we will celebrate the opening of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT next year. Opening a new, long-awaited transit line is a big moment for our city. But we know the LRTs need to move faster. Together with Chair Myers, we developed these recommendations to get our new LRTs and our existing streetcars providing the fast, frequent and reliable service that Torontonians expect. I will also have a motion at City Council that will provide complementary direction for City staff. I look forward to working with the TTC, the Board and Council to speed up our LRTs and streetcars, and get Torontonians moving.

Two Montion:

Recommendations​

It is recommended that the TTC Board:

1. Direct the TTC CEO to work with the City Manager and report back in Q1 2026 on options for removing on-street parking and restricting left turns during high-peak periods on key routes, reviewing the distance between streetcar stops and internal policies governing transit speeds on surface routes, as additional measures to speed up streetcar lines.

Summary​

Following the Board’s consideration of the International Association of Public Transit (UITP)’s Asset Management Peer Review, direction was given to TTC staff to develop a plan to implement enhanced signal priority on all streetcar routes, in partnership with the City of Toronto.

This motion provides further recommendations for TTC staff to explore additional measures to speed up streetcar lines, including signal timing adjustments at intersections, how parking and turning changes can help to cut through rush hour traffic, ensuring that stops are reasonably spaced, and looking at internal TTC policies that govern vehicle speeds.
Through collaboration between the TTC and City of Toronto, we can continue to improve our streetcar network for every rider that depends on it.

and

Recommendations​

It is recommended that the TTC Board:

1. Direct the TTC CEO to work with the City Manager, the Ministry of Transportation, Metrolinx, Mosaic Transit Group and/or Crosslinx Transit Solutions to significantly improve performance, frequency and speed on Line 5 and Line 6 by exploring and implementing where possible, the following measures including, but not limited to, strengthening transit signal priority, feasibility of increasing service frequency (including any required operating funding subsidy increase from the Province of Ontario), and reviewing internal TTC and City of Toronto policies which govern speeds on surface routes, and provide a progress update to the TTC Board no later than Q1 2026.

Summary​

The recent opening of Line 6 is an exciting and important addition to transit infrastructure in the City of Toronto. Line 6 will bring rapid transit options to more than 230,000 residents within walking distance and move more than 51,000 riders each weekday. It runs on a dedicated right-of-way along Finch Avenue West, from Finch West Station on TTC’s Line 1 (Yonge-University) to Humber Polytechnic’s North Campus at Humber College Station.

To ensure its success, the Finch West LRT must be fast and convenient to use. The TTC Board must ensure it exhausts every opportunity to realize this vision of fast and convenient transit for our customers. As the TTC continues its soft opening of Line 6, there are opportunities to improve its performance and speed along the route by looking at more aggressive, active transit signal priority, increasing service frequency, and removing or changing internal TTC, City of Toronto and Metrolinx policies that affect vehicle speeds.

The Board is also cognizant of the imminent opening of Line 5, slated for 2026, and seeks to ensure that all learnings from the opening of Line 6 are applied, as appropriate, to Line 5. It is critically important, that Line 5 service meets the expectations of our customers who have long awaited the opening of this critical east-west rapid transit corridor, particularly in advance of Toronto co-hosting the 2026 FIFA World Cup.

 

[eglinton1661]

Moving live updates on TTC board debate about TSP for streetcar network here:

Councillor Saxe: what is the status of improving the Spadina streetcar? When will we start seeing real improvements there?

TTC staff: we believe we should start to have that online by early February at this point in time

Saxe: how much will that improve travel time?

TTC staff: there's gonna be changes to the surrounding traffic time so it's still a little early... the intent is to report in the congestion management report early next year

Saxe: are you thinking about eliminating left turns?

TTC staff: we're looking at parking changes. we can certainly look at impact of left turns but would require larger study than what we're doing

Saxe: two stage pedestrian crossings in Spadina? have you considered staggered crossings?

TTC staff: we're looking at that

Saxe: I understand that Kitchener has true TSP. Have you reviewed their system?

TTC staff: we can certainly look into that but it's always depending on what technology they use and how it varies with us

Saxe: but not something you've reviewed:

TTC staff: not yet

Saxe: how similar is the transit experience on spadina to experience on dundas that don't have dedicated ROW. How much can we generalize learnings?

TTC staff: for those corridors in mixed traffic other factors are more relevant like removing parking

Saxe: do you need more authorization from the board to speed those up?

TTC staff: we do not need more authorization but we need city council approval to remove parking and that's where we get held up

Myers: can you explain relationship between frequency of stops and inability to reach higher speed?

TTC staff: we have quite a few more stops than many other cities.

Myers: has that been reviewed since we changed to the new streetcars?

TTC staff: we have in a more localized setting. we're now embarking on a more comprehensive network wide review. if the desire is faster service the recommendation will be stop removals, though we recognize those are always difficult and contentious

Myers: when the decision is made to remove a stop there's nothing actually stopping the TTC from removing it right?

TTC staff: yes but we typically consult with the local councillor and their staff. The outcome in almost all cases is do not remove our stop

Myers: is there any reason a streetcar in its own ROW should not be going faster than cars?

TTC staff: in pure theory no. however there's other factors to consider: stop spacing, TSP, folks entering our ROW.

Myers: have we looked into barriers to stop people entering our ROWs?

TTC staff: we're looking into it

 

[Cobra]

I'm encouraged by the political will to make this happen, I think this time - we might have some real results.

Politically, Chow chose her moment correctly. Line 6 was the bottom and she took the situation to push reforms across the board.

Should she succeed in turning this around and people get a tangible sense of how things have been since they've been in the city versus the changes, this will give her a huge win she can campaign on.

Timing wasn't accidental but calculated. Once all of this is in place and people have experience noticeable improvement, I'll be laughing watching her opponents trying to rationalize why going back to status quo is better.

For once...hopeful