News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 10K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 42K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 6.3K     0 

Then why is this considered a PPP? Why isn't the TTC doing the maintenance and for the vehicles, why not Alstom? This doesn't seem like a partnership but rather the province writing a private company a cheque which they instead could be writing to the TTC.
PPP is a private-public (or public-private) partnership. Could easily not include various items. For example I doubt most PPPs to build schools include hiring teachers, etc.!

You may be thinking of a DBFOM (design build finance operate maintain) ... or various versions. This would be a DBFM).

In future, we may be better to simply doing B's and P's. :)
 
I heard a talk he was giving a few years ago to promote a new book on the climate crisis, but he didn't talk about the book. He just went on and on about Transit city and how it was visionary and so much better than the current provincial projects.
Then maybe he should have run again to finish what he’d started instead of giving Rob Ford a runway to destroy it all.
 
Last edited:
Gosh, you must be older than I am, I don't remember the 50s. But I do remember a friend had a party line at their house, and I was a bit shocked. Another apology for off topic.
Party lines were still common in rural areas all the way up to the 90s.
 
Then why is this considered a PPP? Why isn't the TTC doing the maintenance and for the vehicles, why not Alstom? This doesn't seem like a partnership but rather the province writing a private company a cheque which they instead could be writing to the TTC. This is probably why the Canada Line PPP worked, the company put hundreds of millions into the line's construction so had real skin in the game AND any cost overruns would be 100% at the expense of the company not the province/city. It did come in over budget but that was due to the City wanting an extra station and potential for infills but the line the PPP agreed to came in on-budget and..........wait for it............4 months early.

The whole point of a PPP is to be able to access to private capitol to help fund new infrastructure. These guys seem to have just gotten a maintenance contract.
What am I missing or misunderstanding because I'm lost.
Accessing Private Capitol. Nobody can borrow for less than the gov't.
I think all in means in real life is that the gov't is willing to pay a premium (over-and-above the normal time-value of money) in order to spread the costs over a longer period of time.
In the DBFOM (design build finance operate maintain),
  1. the DB should be for the Contractor to design the entire line so they can optimize total costs. Maybe pay more for trains and less for stations, or more for tunnels and less for stations. I understand that worked well in Vancouver. Ontario chose to break the DB part into a few large contracts. Too large to allow more bidders, but not large enough to really allow optimization. Either break it into smaller DBB (Design Bid Build) contracts that can get more bidders (but needs gov't to Quarterback everything), or give it all to one contractor. But not in between.
  2. The Finance is just there to make the immediate gov't books look better.
  3. The Operate is admission that gov't operation is inherently less efficient.
  4. The Maintenance is a sort of Warranty - since there was much less oversight during construction.
 
Accessing Private Capitol. Nobody can borrow for less than the gov't.
I think all in means in real life is that the gov't is willing to pay a premium (over-and-above the normal time-value of money) in order to spread the costs over a longer period of time.
In the DBFOM (design build finance operate maintain),
  1. the DB should be for the Contractor to design the entire line so they can optimize total costs. Maybe pay more for trains and less for stations, or more for tunnels and less for stations. I understand that worked well in Vancouver. Ontario chose to break the DB part into a few large contracts. Too large to allow more bidders, but not large enough to really allow optimization. Either break it into smaller DBB (Design Bid Build) contracts that can get more bidders (but needs gov't to Quarterback everything), or give it all to one contractor. But not in between.
  2. The Finance is just there to make the immediate gov't books look better.
  3. The Operate is admission that gov't operation is inherently less efficient.
  4. The Maintenance is a sort of Warranty - since there was much less oversight during construction.
And it’s done so the media can’t make headlines over an expense claim for orange juice.
 
Accessing Private Capitol. Nobody can borrow for less than the gov't.
I think all in means in real life is that the gov't is willing to pay a premium (over-and-above the normal time-value of money) in order to spread the costs over a longer period of time.
In the DBFOM (design build finance operate maintain),
  1. the DB should be for the Contractor to design the entire line so they can optimize total costs. Maybe pay more for trains and less for stations, or more for tunnels and less for stations. I understand that worked well in Vancouver. Ontario chose to break the DB part into a few large contracts. Too large to allow more bidders, but not large enough to really allow optimization. Either break it into smaller DBB (Design Bid Build) contracts that can get more bidders (but needs gov't to Quarterback everything), or give it all to one contractor. But not in between.
  2. The Finance is just there to make the immediate gov't books look better.
  3. The Operate is admission that gov't operation is inherently less efficient.
  4. The Maintenance is a sort of Warranty - since there was much less oversight during construction.

You’re pretty far off here.

AFPs (the Ontario version of a P3) are used because they are supposed to move risk away from the public sector. Governments can always borrow money more cheaply than private companies. The reason AFPs use private financing is to force private partners to take responsibility if things go wrong. If a project is late or does not work as promised, ProjectCo is (in theory) supposed to pay for that. Under the traditional design bid build approach, cost overruns almost always end up being paid by the government.

That said, the benefits of that risk transfer have not really happened on transit projects in Ontario thus far. A big reason is that AFP consortia are extremely experienced at navigating contracts and using contract language to their advantage, while the public client was not as well prepared or as contract-savvy (hence the reliance on consultants in technical advisory roles). That imbalance means risks that were meant to stay with ProjectCo have drifted back to the public sector.

The extra cost of an AFP is not just about paying interest over time. It is the price of asking the private partner to take on the risk of delays, cost overruns, and long term performance. Those same risks exist under design bid build, but in that model the government carries almost all of them, even if they aren't generally publicized.

Breaking large projects into separate pieces is done on purpose. You can only fully optimize a whole system if the government is willing to give up control over standards and how the network fits together long term, which would not be advisable with TTC as operator. For example, TTC standards for tunnels need to be much more strictly adhered to versus stations which can vary more as long as they work just as well and meet certain criteria.

In theory, AFPs also give governments access to up to date industry knowledge. Private firms work on large projects around the world and bring newer construction methods than public agencies that build megaprojects only occasionally. That benefit has shown up unevenly because the public client has not always been positioned to challenge or properly manage the private partner.

The main benefit, cost wise (again in theory) is the predictability of a fixed price and schedule, and penalties if the private partner doesn't meet the requirements. That obviously hasn't worked out as planned thus far.

The problem to date is that the client has not consistently acted as a strong, informed client, allowing private partners who understand the contracts far better to shift risk back onto taxpayers. This is compounded by TTC being able to leverage their position as operator to have elements of the project delivered to their liking very late in the game and at significant cost as these are considered contract changes.

There are a million ways that these projects could be better delivered using AFP but the benefits, if they're managed properly, are still significant.
 
You’re pretty far off here.

AFPs (the Ontario version of a P3) are used because they are supposed to move risk away from the public sector. Governments can always borrow money more cheaply than private companies. The reason AFPs use private financing is to force private partners to take responsibility if things go wrong. If a project is late or does not work as promised, ProjectCo is (in theory) supposed to pay for that. Under the traditional design bid build approach, cost overruns almost always end up being paid by the government.

That said, the benefits of that risk transfer have not really happened on transit projects in Ontario thus far. A big reason is that AFP consortia are extremely experienced at navigating contracts and using contract language to their advantage, while the public client was not as well prepared or as contract-savvy (hence the reliance on consultants in technical advisory roles). That imbalance means risks that were meant to stay with ProjectCo have drifted back to the public sector.

The extra cost of an AFP is not just about paying interest over time. It is the price of asking the private partner to take on the risk of delays, cost overruns, and long term performance. Those same risks exist under design bid build, but in that model the government carries almost all of them, even if they aren't generally publicized.

Breaking large projects into separate pieces is done on purpose. You can only fully optimize a whole system if the government is willing to give up control over standards and how the network fits together long term, which would not be advisable with TTC as operator. For example, TTC standards for tunnels need to be much more strictly adhered to versus stations which can vary more as long as they work just as well and meet certain criteria.

In theory, AFPs also give governments access to up to date industry knowledge. Private firms work on large projects around the world and bring newer construction methods than public agencies that build megaprojects only occasionally. That benefit has shown up unevenly because the public client has not always been positioned to challenge or properly manage the private partner.

The main benefit, cost wise (again in theory) is the predictability of a fixed price and schedule, and penalties if the private partner doesn't meet the requirements. That obviously hasn't worked out as planned thus far.

The problem to date is that the client has not consistently acted as a strong, informed client, allowing private partners who understand the contracts far better to shift risk back onto taxpayers. This is compounded by TTC being able to leverage their position as operator to have elements of the project delivered to their liking very late in the game and at significant cost as these are considered contract changes.

There are a million ways that these projects could be better delivered using AFP but the benefits, if they're managed properly, are still significant.
Consultants always make money
 
Line 5 (or at least the station overhang at Leaside) is already improving my commute!
1000041207.jpg
 
The reasons ML/TTC/City put forward as to why they need so many surface stations is completely illogical. Why are the underground stations further apart than the surface ones? If one can walk the longer distance to an underground station, what is the logic behind them not being able to do the same at-grade?

Rapid transit is a trade off and always will be. You acknowledge that in order to get significantly faster and more reliable transit, you must have far fewer stations than a regular bus route. As stats have consistently shown worldwide, people are willing to walk longer distances to get to a rapid transit station than they are to a regular bus stop. People know and accept this. They know that the extra 2 minutes of walking time to rapid transit will be more than made up for by vastly faster travel times with more reliability.

In the City's desire to appeal to every transit rider, no one gets served well
 
Last edited:
The reasons ML/TTC/City put forward as to why they need so many surface stations is completely illogical. Why are the underground stations further apart than the surface ones? If one can walk the longer distance to an underground station, what is the logic behind them no being able to do the same at-grade?

Rapid transit is a trade off and always will be. You acknowledge that in order to get significantly faster and more reliable transit, you must have far fewer stations than a regular bus route. As stats have consistently shown worldwide, people are willing to walk longer distances to get to a rapid transit station than they are to a regular bus stop. People know and accept this. They know that the extra 2 minutes of walking time to rapid transit will be more than made up for by vastly faster travel times with more reliability.

In the City's desire to every transit rider, no one gets served well
Well we know the whole point of the closer stop spacing was to eliminate the need for a parallel bus service, and this is laid out clearly in the project assessments. Of course we have thrown that idea out of the window since both the FW and EC have parallel bus routes on the surface sections of the LRT's which wasn't supposed to happen. The TTC doesn't want to operate these parallel bus services but unfortunately politicians and local residents demand that they do. Ideally the 36 would be eliminated entirely west of Finch West, and the 34 would only run between Don Valley and Mount Dennis but that's not what's going to happen. Its just an example of technical side of transit expansion coming into conflict with the political side of it.
 

Back
Top