[Steve X]

What exactly do you mean by construction cost? It was ostensibly intended to be ~$100 million/km back in 2018 or whenever the first contract was signed, but myriad change orders stemming from the DBFM P3 model inevitably doubled the construction cost. Thinking Line 6 was ever going to cost $100 million/km in capital costs is naive and unrealistic.

The total contract is now valued at $3.745 billion at least. Including $1.2 billion for 30 year maintenance.

View attachment 709740

https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1763754630/Documents/Metrolinx/Item_13.5_-_Capital_Projects_-_Rapid_Transit_-_FINAL_ENG_Mx.pdf

7+ years ago:
"Toronto, Ontario – May 7, 2018: Aecon Group Inc. (TSX: ARE) announced today that Mosaic Transit Group has reached commercial and financial close on the previously disclosed Finch West Light Rail Transit (LRT) project in Toronto. The total contract is valued at $2.5 billion, which includes $1.2 billion of construction costs."

Aecon consortium reaches financial close on Finch West Light Rail Transit project

www.aecon.com

As for the pedantry regarding 2014 or 2018 dollars, someone else chime in how Metrolinx calculates costs, because they accrue over time. Also, a dollar paid in 2019 is not worth the same as a dollar paid in 2025 for a project in progress over 6 years.

To be fair, the construction cost included the yard and maintenance/backup operation building (which probably cost around 200-300m), the two "subway" stations at each terminal, the grade separated turn at Finch/Highway 27 and likely vehicles would be included too. The VIVA rapidway figures would not include any of these.

 

[hw621]

Wrong again - they DO have transit priority lights and… You’re obviously not a tax payer.

Nope, I drive on Hwy 7 everyday, and see VIVA stuck behind red lights...

And their TSP is this:

• Signal Priority (TSP): When a Viva bus is behind schedule, it sends a signal to upcoming intersections to trigger a "green light extension" or a "red light hold" (shortening the red phase).
• Priority Activation: This system is not used for every light, but specifically when the bus is behind schedule (e.g., 1–3 minutes late).

 

[TRONto]

What exactly do you mean by construction cost? It was ostensibly intended to be ~$100 million/km back in 2018 or whenever the first contract was signed, but myriad change orders stemming from the DBFM P3 model inevitably doubled the construction cost. Thinking Line 6 was ever going to cost $100 million/km in capital costs is naive and unrealistic.

The total contract is now valued at $3.745 billion at least. Including $1.2 billion for 30 year maintenance.

View attachment 709740

https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1763754630/Documents/Metrolinx/Item_13.5_-_Capital_Projects_-_Rapid_Transit_-_FINAL_ENG_Mx.pdf

7+ years ago:
"Toronto, Ontario – May 7, 2018: Aecon Group Inc. (TSX: ARE) announced today that Mosaic Transit Group has reached commercial and financial close on the previously disclosed Finch West Light Rail Transit (LRT) project in Toronto. The total contract is valued at $2.5 billion, which includes $1.2 billion of construction costs."

Aecon consortium reaches financial close on Finch West Light Rail Transit project

www.aecon.com

As for the pedantry regarding 2014 or 2018 dollars, someone else chime in how Metrolinx calculates costs, because they accrue over time. Also, a dollar paid in 2019 is not worth the same as a dollar paid in 2025 for a project in progress over 6 years.

The numbers in the table are all in. They don't separate out the different costs. Check the asterisk notes.

 

[smallspy]

The TTC used to plow their own ROWs before that duty was taken over by the City public works department. They had snow sweepers and plow cars until the late '70s.View attachment 709712
Once the City took over plowing the ROWs they got rid of them. The expansion and increase in frequency of the Blue Night streetcar services also helped with keeping streetcar tracks clear as the streetcars themselves would clear their own flangeways and overhead wires and the need to throw frequently used switches overnight helps keep them clear of any buildup of ice, snow and other debris during the winter as well. The other big factor in why the TTC doesn't have a need to clear snow along it's own ROWs comes down to the hours of service of the streetcar network itself. The gap between when revenue service ends and when revenue service begins again is small. Then there's the non-revenue runs to and from the carhouses on top that also contribute to the networks passive snow clearing abilities.

Beyond all that....

The TTC also runs storm cars & trains when the weather is expected to be inclement. They do this done on all streetcar trackage, on the surface-running parts of the subway, and on the Crosstown as well.

I don't know if the contract for Finch West allows for them, but up to now I haven't heard of any storm cars being used up there.

Dan

 

[urbanclient]

Nope, I drive on Hwy 7 everyday, and see VIVA stuck behind red lights...

And their TSP is this:

• Signal Priority (TSP): When a Viva bus is behind schedule, it sends a signal to upcoming intersections to trigger a "green light extension" or a "red light hold" (shortening the red phase).
• Priority Activation: This system is not used for every light, but specifically when the bus is behind schedule (e.g., 1–3 minutes late).

Both of you guys are right. TSP basically works like that for TTC streetcars i.e. doesn't really work. AFAIK the programming is not optimal, if not wholly counterproductive. @reaperexpress is the expert on TSP.

@TRONto you are misinterpreting that. The initial all in cost was quoted as $2.5 billion with roughly $1.2 billion for construction in 2018. The remainder was for maintenance and operations* over 30 years, financing costs and some other insignificant items incurred before or at opening.

Now that Line 6 is complete and running, the construction (capital) costs are fully paid for on the books, which includes the capital financing costs. The remaining $1.2 billion out of the overbudget $3.7 billion current all in cost is mostly for the 30 year maintenance contract. The non-maintenance side of the contract is >$2.548 billion since that figure was already incurred 2 months before opening. Not exactly surprising for construction costs to double for a P3 project in Ontario (change orders).

The numbers in the table are all in. They don't separate out the different costs. Check the asterisk notes.

*Operations is essentially paid for by the TTC, but without going more in-depth, a small part of 'operations' is handled by Mosaic under the contract.

 

[hawc]

I think it's tempting to blame all the speed issues on TSP... but I'd bet that even if the lights were ALWAYS GREEN for the LRT it would still be slow and unreliable.

The TTC is still afraid to run the LRT through intersections faster than 30km/h (which is hilarious)
The TTC still doesn't want to run the LRT at its top speed of 60 - 70 km/h anywhere because of increased wear and tear and maintenance
The stops are still spaced way to close together compared to other LRTs
The TTC operators still like to accelerate super slowly
The TTC still has switch problems that require the LRT to run slower over switches and around curves
The LRT still can't run after a modest snowfall

So by all means let's demand TSP but just don't make that a scape goat for all that ails this awful $3B waste of resources.

 

[reaperexpress]

Nope, I drive on Hwy 7 everyday, and see VIVA stuck behind red lights...

And their TSP is this:

• Signal Priority (TSP): When a Viva bus is behind schedule, it sends a signal to upcoming intersections to trigger a "green light extension" or a "red light hold" (shortening the red phase).
• Priority Activation: This system is not used for every light, but specifically when the bus is behind schedule (e.g., 1–3 minutes late).

Transit Signal Priority doesn't mean that the transit vehicle is guaranteed a green light, it just means that the signal does something to reduce delay for transit.

One one extreme, that could be like the systems in the Netherlands that basically do everything in their power to provide a green light in time for a late bus' estimated arrival. The other extreme that could be like the TSP for Montreal's Pie-IX BRT where the only thing TSP can do is extend green lights by 5 seconds if the bus happens to be within 5 seconds of the intersection when the light would change to yellow, and otherwise it does absolutely nothing to help the bus.

Meanwhile in Toronto, streetcars/LRT can extend lights by up to 30 seconds, which obviously provides way more benefit than a 5-second extension. The City also allows TSP to shorten the side street by up to 16 seconds, but in most cases this is impossible since the side street duration is already the minimum allowable duration for pedestrians to cross. Currently streetcars/LRT are not allowed to change the order of phases or insert transit phases to reduce delay, though the City of Toronto recently approved that feature so it should hopefully be rolled out in the next few months.

I don't know what the parameters are for Viva's TSP, but my experience is that even when buses are way behind schedule they spend a ton of time waiting at red lights that could have been avoided with more aggressive TSP. This suggests that they are using very limited TSP parameters, possibly as pathetic as Montreal's. There's also a big difference between a 1-minute threshold and a 3-minute threshold for activating TSP. With a 1-minute threshold the bus is basically still on time when it starts activating TSP, so they can make the schedule quite aggressive, counting on TSP to keep buses moving quickly. But a 3-minute threshold would only request TSP if the bus is actually late, so it has limited ability to speed up the schedule and bring late buses all the way back on time (given that TSP gives up once they get within 3 minutes of schedule)

 

[reaperexpress]

I think it's tempting to blame all the speed issues on TSP... but I'd bet that even if the lights were ALWAYS GREEN for the LRT it would still be slow and unreliable.

The TTC is still afraid to run the LRT through intersections faster than 30km/h (which is hilarious)

Actually the limit is 25 km/h, and it also applies entering platforms and exiting platforms.

The TTC still doesn't want to run the LRT at its top speed of 60 - 70 km/h anywhere because of increased wear and tear and maintenance

I have seen some operators accelerate to the 60 km/h speed limit on the one stretch that's long enough to reach that speed (between Kipling and Islington). The bigger issue is the fact that they need to slow to 25 at every intersection and every platform, severely limiting the opportunity to reach such high speeds. Cruising at 60-70 km/h doesn't put much wear and tear on vehicles, it's the constant accelerating and braking at every intersection that will drive up maintenance costs.

The stops are still spaced way to close together compared to other LRTs

Indeed, this was due to the TTC's unwillingness to run a parallel bus service.

The TTC operators still like to accelerate super slowly

I think this is partly due to the fact that the CBTC system enforces a 25 km/h limit until the back of the tram clears the platform:

The TTC still has switch problems that require the LRT to run slower over switches and around curves

The Finch LRT does run at full speed travelling straight through switches (up to 60 km/h). I personally experienced 56 km/h. The turnout speed is 10 km/h, which is much slower than it should be.

The 10 km/h limit under Hwy 27 is also much slower than other LRT/tram systems going around curves with the same radius.

So by all means let's demand TSP but just don't make that a scape goat for all that ails this awful $3B waste of resources.

Even when we improve TSP, remove stops and raise the ridiculous speed limits, the LRT will never be able to achieve speeds comparable to a rapid transit line, since it's in the middle of the road with pedestrians wandering across the tracks, to/from platforms and across the road.

The only way LRT can achieve rapid transit speeds is when it has a fully separate ROW unrelated to any road (like the northern portion of Edmonton's Capital line or like a commuter rail line) or if it's in the median with a fully fenced ROW and level crossing gates at intersections (like the southern portion Edmonton's Capital line).

 

[Rainforest]

I think it's tempting to blame all the speed issues on TSP... but I'd bet that even if the lights were ALWAYS GREEN for the LRT it would still be slow and unreliable.

The TTC is still afraid to run the LRT through intersections faster than 30km/h (which is hilarious)
The TTC still doesn't want to run the LRT at its top speed of 60 - 70 km/h anywhere because of increased wear and tear and maintenance
The stops are still spaced way to close together compared to other LRTs
The TTC operators still like to accelerate super slowly
The TTC still has switch problems that require the LRT to run slower over switches and around curves
The LRT still can't run after a modest snowfall

So by all means let's demand TSP but just don't make that a scape goat for all that ails this awful $3B waste of resources.

Sadly, this is true.

However, it is a good idea to address the TSP improvements first, simply because there exists a political consensus that it has to be done.

And then, dependent on the outcome of TSP improvements, the TTC will have to decide if they want to:
- Accept the outcome and do nothing else
- Review and modernize the safety rules to improve the speed
- Dramatically cut the number of stops (cutting just 3 stops would be hardly noticeable, they would have to go from 16 non-terminal stops to just about 7 or 8)
- Change the safety rules and cut the stops at the same time

 

[Rainforest]

Even when we improve TSP, remove stops and raise the ridiculous speed limits, the LRT will never be able to achieve speeds comparable to a rapid transit line, since it's in the middle of the road with pedestrians wandering across the tracks, to/from platforms and across.

Speed of a true rapid transit line may not be achievable. But at least, this thing needs to run faster than a mixed-traffic bus.

The mixed-traffic bus deals with all the same impeding factors: traffic lights, pedestrians wandering across. In addition, the mixed-traffic bus gets blocked by other vehicles (normally, not the case for LRT), and has more stops than the LRT.

The TTC or Metrolinx should review the situation, and let the public know how the mixed-traffic bus manages to run faster under those conditions.

Is that just because the rail transit department wants to be more cautious than the bus department, and the two departments don't talk to each other? In that case, the rules ought to be changed.

Or, is there something that makes the LRT inherently slower than the bus? Rails, steel wheels, overall weight, location of platforms in the middle of the road instead of curbs? If that's the case, then it pretty much ends any plans to have more suburban LRTs built. Noone will want to invest in making the public transit slower.

 

[robmausser]

Even when we improve TSP, remove stops and raise the ridiculous speed limits, the LRT will never be able to achieve speeds comparable to a rapid transit line, since it's in the middle of the road with pedestrians wandering across the tracks, to/from platforms and across.

This is easily fixable with barrier fencing along the route of the LRTs.

But people find this unsightly and overbearing.

Pedestrians wandering platforms is a non-issue in that its the same issue with any other kind of rail without platform screen doors.

 

[reaperexpress]

This is easily fixable with barrier fencing along the route of the LRTs.

View attachment 709807

But people find this unsightly and overbearing.

Pedestrians wandering platforms is a non-issue in that its the same issue with any other kind of rail without platform screen doors.

That's part of it, but the other part is that it's a lot harder to provide a green light for a line going through the middle of an intersection than a line that just crosses roads using a level crossing or simple intersection. Even the City of Toronto can implement highly effective signal priority at simple intersections:

To enable the signal to provide a green for approaching trams you need to be able to truncate the side street, so there needs to be a separate pedestrian signal just for crossing the tracks, separately from the ones crossing the road. So for a median ROW you need three-stage pedestrian crossings:

and for side-of-road ROW you need at least two-stage pedestrian crossings:

That requires more lateral space for pedestrian islands than the 1- or 2-stage designs used on Ontario's existing median transit ROWs. So if we want to be serious about providing signal priority to transit in dedicated ROWs, we need to start building intersections in a way that actually makes it practical to do so.

 

[mrgrieves]

I think it's tempting to blame all the speed issues on TSP... but I'd bet that even if the lights were ALWAYS GREEN for the LRT it would still be slow and unreliable.

The TTC is still afraid to run the LRT through intersections faster than 30km/h (which is hilarious)
The TTC still doesn't want to run the LRT at its top speed of 60 - 70 km/h anywhere because of increased wear and tear and maintenance
The stops are still spaced way to close together compared to other LRTs
The TTC operators still like to accelerate super slowly
The TTC still has switch problems that require the LRT to run slower over switches and around curves
The LRT still can't run after a modest snowfall

So by all means let's demand TSP but just don't make that a scape goat for all that ails this awful $3B waste of resources.

Politically, I'm wondering what happens after improvements are made but the line is still slow. Definitely LRT's will not get built again in TO. The line is in a part of the city that unfortunately many people don't care about. Does the $4Bn wasted matter to the public?

All of these might get lumped together with Eglinton, which could be a disaster also, but is higher profile

 

[reaperexpress]

However, it is a good idea to address the TSP improvements first, simply because there exists a political consensus that it has to be done.

And then, dependent on the outcome of TSP improvements, the TTC will have to decide if they want to:
- Accept the outcome and do nothing else
- Review and modernize the safety rules to improve the speed
- Dramatically cut the number of stops (cutting just 3 stops would be hardly noticeable, they would have to go from 16 non-terminal stops to just about 7 or 8)
- Change the safety rules and cut the stops at the same time

TSP only works effectively if it has an accurate estimate of when the tram will arrive at the intersection. So if you add or remove speed restrictions you need to recalibrate the whole system. For this reason I think it makes more sense to raise the speed restrictions at the same time they're redesigning the TSP so they don't have to redesign the TSP twice.

If there is enough political support, raising the speed restrictions could also happen equally quickly, it's not like any physical changes are needed to lift them, it's just a matter of programming in the CBTC system.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Don't most transit vehicles now have GPS included in them? Part of why they are more expensive cost of electronics these days. With GPS, they could give their locate and speed to trigger a green signal for them, not to the second. No need for sensors in the track or overhead to implement real transit priority. If I can track my luggage at the wrong airport, Shirley surely they can track the larger LRVs.