81-717
Active Member
Heck, I even got up to 50 on a bike going down the westbound hill from VP to Sloane.
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thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
The Flexities on Eglinton or downtown on the streetcar network are a hell of a lot better for this then the Citadis Spirits on Finch and also in Ottawa that seem to fail in the winter.
urbanclient
Active Member
I like this glass half full attitude. However, there are still some people blindly hoping Eglinton won't be that slow, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Let's recap:
Eglinton as it was built, was originally advertised as 38 minutes for 19km, averaging 30 km/h, with 14 out of 25 stops underground, plus Mount Dennis being fully grade separated.
The original 43 stop, 33 km Eglinton Crosstown was advertised to average 28 km/h, with 13 of 43 stops underground [1].
The round trip time cited by the TTC was 112 minutes at the Dec 10 Board meeting; so if we take out 12 min for recovery, and halve it, that's about 50 minutes from end-to-end.
Inferring from videos, reports from train spotters, as well as what some may dismiss as 'rumours' from insiders, we can very plausibly see 60 minutes end-to-end.
60 minutes could very well be the low-end, it may be even longer at times, just like how Line 6 often was and still is doing 50+ minutes instead of the scheduled 46 minutes.
Consider the rumour from ops that it takes 39 minutes to go from Mount Dennis to Kennedy WITHOUT making any stops.
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This is not at all surprising when one considers Line 6's average red light metrics, extrapolated to Line 5's surface section distances and number of traffic lights.
Going back to the 28 and 30 km/h advertised average speeds. Which by the way, is faster than Line 1 and 2's actual speeds in regular service. This was founded on Transit City architects' delusions that 'light rail vehicles' could fly down the middle of Eglinton like this:
131K views · 1.1K reactions | Toronto Transit Commission's proposed light rail commuter trains in 2009 | Old Toronto Series
Toronto Transit Commission's proposed light rail commuter trains in 2009
www.facebook.com
≥80 km/h down the street median, all while cars have a 60 km/h speed limit, a scenario that did not and does not exist on Earth. But that didn't stop Transit City people from believing it.
Also, if you watch the Transit City video from the start, it's clear these know-nothings thought that elevated viaduct LIM metros like the Van Skytrain, and high floor trams built like metros like Calgary were somehow in the same class as low floor trams down a street median. I.e. that the vehicle type and ROW was somehow interchangeable, all 3 were capable of the same results. The same delusion applies to the rolling stock choice for Ottawa's fully grade-separated Line 1. Also, someone tell the people claiming 40 to 45 km/h top speeds are "pretty quick" @T-Bor how that cannot translate to 28 to 30 km/h average speeds.
1. (Internet Archive often temporarily down) https://web.archive.org/web/2021020.../Transit_City/Eglinton_LRT_route_diagram1.pdf
Here is the post where I broke down the math behind a ~60 minute end-to-end travel time for Line 5 Eglinton:
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cplchanb
Senior Member
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/eglinton-lrt-opening-line-5-9.7065147
se we are back full circle.... werent there people here who were vehemently opposed to the possibility of a phased opening as it was impossible to open only certain sections... look what is being explored right now...
se we are back full circle.... werent there people here who were vehemently opposed to the possibility of a phased opening as it was impossible to open only certain sections... look what is being explored right now...
urbanclient
Active Member
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/eglinton-lrt-opening-line-5-9.7065147
se we are back full circle.... werent there people here who were vehemently opposed to the possibility of a phased opening as it was impossible to open only certain sections... look what is being explored right now...
"certain sections". Absolute shambles. I think we know which section is the crux of the issue....
"[We did not anticipate everything to be a problem with Finch.]"
The CBC reporter is also holding onto unfounded hope, I think most here can agree that it won't be possible to run trains every 3.5 minutes any time soon...
"the TTC has been preparing to open the LRT at what the P3 agreement calls Service Level 1, which would see trains run as often as every 5 minutes at the busiest times. [...] But the TTC is now in discussion with Metrolinx about starting at Level 6, under which trains would run as often as every 3 minutes and 10 seconds. Metrolinx proposed the higher service levels, which would be a major change — the LRT wasn’t expected to reach Level 6 for another 15 years." They do not have enough trains to run 3.5 minute headways at the current average speeds.
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yurt2022
New Member
"Certain sections" meaning the at-grade portion might not open to save the TTC from being flamed for the slow speed in Scarborough. Trains turning back either at Laird or Don Valley.
Meaning we will need to wait a few months for them to activate "signal priority" after they finish all their "studies" which will still be shamefully slow because signal priority is not the problem here.
pleaseLRT
New Member
Going to echo what @A 6264 said a couple pages ago:https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/eglinton-lrt-opening-line-5-9.7065147
se we are back full circle.... werent there people here who were vehemently opposed to the possibility of a phased opening as it was impossible to open only certain sections... look what is being explored right now...
We're 11 days away from the supposed opening date, yet no one at the TTC wants to confirm if it's actually gonna open or not; wtf is going on? How comfortable does CEO Mandeep Lali need to be to make an official announcement already?
yurt2022
New Member
It lowkey would've been good if Metrolinx was successful in uploading Toronto's subway system.
TTC clearly can't manage it themselves.
urbanclient
Active Member
It is and it isn't. I highly highly highly doubt the trams will get priority over left turns given what we know about a certain someone from Traffic Systems Operations within City Transportation Services (not the TTC).
That in itself will keep the trams from hitting even 24 to 27 minutes above ground, like the 17 to 19 km/h speeds of Paris T9. To hit the originally advertised 38 to 40 minutes end-to-end would imply the impossible: 17 to 19 minutes for the 7.7 km above ground section. (See videos made by Transit City above)
By the way, 21 minutes for the 11.3 km western section would imply 32 km/h average speeds. Faster than Lines 1 and 2, as well as Ottawa's Line 1. And all 3 have wider stop spacing than the western section of Eglinton. So I have serious doubts about that as well. It would imply faster acceleration and deceleration than even Ottawa, which has low floor vehicles with 105 km/h design speeds, compared to 88 km/h for Eglinton.... And we all know how that ended for Ottawa:
"Further, the City’s demands for the vehicle, including a low floor and performance requirements that made the use of an automatic train control system with aggressive acceleration and deceleration rates necessary, among other performance capabilities, pushed the limits of performance for an LRT."
10 takeaways from the Ottawa LRT inquiry final report
CTVNewsOttawa.ca looks at ten key takeaways from the Ottawa Light Rail Transit Public Inquiry final report released on Wednesday.
www.ctvnews.ca
This mountain of evidence ignored is what I am talking about when I hear the same spiel: "you don't know anything forsure", or "let's see what happens":
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KhalilHeron
Active Member
I doubt very many people will be taking it end to end but not because of a lack of demand, but because of a lack of speed.
I living near Eglinton east of Kennedy, and traveling to KW a lot, would absolutely take the line end to end to catch the Kitchener train if it were fast. Unfortunately it looks like line 2 or GO will still be faster despite the detour downtown, and needing to plan my trip around GO schedules.
nfitz
Superstar
It's hard to say much from one video. I've driven at 50 km/hr not far west of there, and the streetcars have been more than competitive with what I'm doing. Transit vehicles do try to run a bit slower if they are on/ahead of schedule. Perhaps lower dwell time than usual in stations? Also where's the transition point between ATC and manual operation? We used to see the Line 1 trains pause and slow when there used to be a transition zone.Behold the incredible speed of the magnificent new Line 5! 8:00AM January 28, 2026.
I'd think few would take it, simply because few travel end-to-end on the existing east-west subway and streetcar lines. Even on the Bloor-Danforth there's considerable turn-over between the end and the middle - let alone end--to-end.
Even now from Main Street, it's slightly faster to take Lakeshore from Danforth station to get to the Kitchener train than take the subway. I'd assume it will be quicker from Kennedy to use GO. Some of the trips are eventhe same train all the way, and the schedule will only approve.
nfitz
Superstar
The full system is operable. There's no constraint on avoiding construction areas. Apples and oranges.se we are back full circle.... werent there people here who were vehemently opposed to the possibility of a phased opening as it was impossible to open only certain sections... look what is being explored right now...
I very much doubt they'll actually go to full operation without the whole line running. And I very much doubt even the initial trial operation would skip the stations with construction delays like Cedarvale and Eglinton. Others might disagree with me.
urbanclient
Active Member
You're sidestepping the point. The point is, Eglinton won't get anywhere close to the advertised average speeds, nor will it get close to what many naively imagine to be its speeds on the eastern section. Bickering about semantics or minute details doesn't take away from the overall argument.
650 metre stop spacing from Sunnybrook to Kennedy. Theoretical top speeds limited to 60 km/h, actual speeds less. Average speeds will be close to 12 km/h.
Strong TSP would push average speeds to 17-19km/h, if it actually happens, and I hope it does. And 650 metre spacing is only 50 metres wider than Line 6 Finch West.
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hawc
Senior Member
Wait. Average speed from end to end is 12 - 19 km/h? Oh boy. So someone can jog the whole line faster. That's incredibly slow.
micheal_can
Senior Member
21.1 km is a half marathon.
You ain't jogging that!