[81-717]

To be fair, what is the likelihood that a pedestrian with headphones walks in front of a GO or freight train at a protected crossing. Not saying it's never happened.

True, most LRTs don't have crossing gates & signals like mainline rail does (but I think some do, like Calgary?).

Trams in Europe interact with pedestrians at a level that would induce pearl-clutching here. That's why they have magnetic brakes. Apparently a small handful of high floor and commuter rail type trains are adopting them as well.

I thought one of the main reasons Europe does trams better than us is because they're more grade-separated than here? Yeah some subways & mainline rail do have track brakes, but fortunately not all do (the Arlanda Express has them, but at least they appear to be significantly higher above the railhead when not in use, giving a significant ground clearance, whereas on all trams, along with the SRT & Chicago L, it's literally almost touching the rail 100% of the time).

 

[tripwire]

Apparently maybe per WearyInspection5396's comment:

"As of right now that’s what we’re preparing for, however we’ve been told in no uncertain terms that they can pull the plug on that any minute if there’s a new problem, or if the weather is going to be bad. Management is currently working on revised scheduling to see how much they can water down the service to minimize the number trains on the line to reduce the chance of some ongoing issues creating negative PR on launch day."

(Bold mine)

Isn't watering down the service going to create negative PR by default? I mean, I'd rather they launch with full confidence versus launching with their eyes covered and fingers crossed. How has it gotten so bad?

 

[McGillicuddy]

I don't think there's an option at this juncture for "perfect launch with zero risk of issues or controversy", if such an option ever existed.

The choice would appear to be between:

• Confident whole-milk launch which could be a total disaster
• Gentle skim-milk launch, which would be more expensive and less impressive, but would insulate the system against the worst PR possibilities

Ottawa went with that second option for the Confederation Line, and it definitely helped blunt what could otherwise have been a completely disasterous launch. (Which says a lot, IMO: Ottawa would have been worse, and dodged that fate because they kept enough of the old network in place that, even if the LRT failed, commuters could switch to familiar alternatives: no shuttle buses, no waiting for shuttle buses, no disrupting the entire bus network to scramble up shuttle buses, etc.)

 

[urbanclient]

I thought one of the main reasons Europe does trams better than us is because they're more grade-separated than here?

Yes, that's definitely true for some lines, especially the small handful out of hundreds that people cite that as evidence for trams as-fast-as-metro. Wholesale ignoring the fact that they are built on old railway ROWs, viaducts etc... But for many lines and sections of lines, like in Manchester, the trams are allowed to go relatively fast in wide town squares and pedestrian streets despite little to no traffic separation. I can't see that happening in Toronto, not just due to the lack of pedestrianized town squares, but the overzealous 'safety' culture.

Yeah some subways & mainline rail do have track brakes, but fortunately not all do

I was being pedantic, virtually all non-low floor trains are built without magnetic track brakes. I thought better me mention a caveat, then someone else that might use it to discredit you. (On the topic of level-crossings, go back a few pages.) Your earlier point stands.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Great, can you link to where I can read this?

It was on CP24 during a press conference about the new Line 2 subway cars. In fact it was the only question asked. I suspect a clip will be available later.

 

[Thaboss]

It was on CP24 during a press conference about the new Line 2 subway cars. In fact it was the only question asked. I suspect a clip will be available later.

7:30 min in - "the issue has been resolved"...."yes we are on track"

"Transit signal upgrades will not be fully implimented until may"

 

[Coolibop]

7:30 min in - "the issue has been resolved"...."yes we are on track"

"Transit signal upgrades will not be fully implimented until may"

Not sure if a silly question, but where is the TTC CEO in all of this? Perhaps not my understanding of process, but I'm surprised the chair of the board making announcements? Is that typical? I'm thinking back to days of Byford who seemed to be all over the press...not sure I remember what the new CEO looks like...

 

[T3G]

ol, I sure am aware, and I personally think it's the primary driving force behind the pro-subway/anti-LRT community, they're averse to trams/LRTs because on a subconscious level they reject the tramlike vehicle design and near-0 ground clearance due to track brakes.

????

I'm pretty sure most of the anti-LRT contingent isn't even aware of track brakes existing. The debate about subways vs. LRT is due to factors such as grade separation, automation, and capacity, not whether the vehicle looks like a tram or whether it has ground clearance or not. And anyone that does, it's very safe to discredit their argument.

thought one of the main reasons Europe does trams better than us is because they're more grade-separated than here?

Most European cities have tram lines that look, at least superficially, like line 6 and the eastern section of line 5. They are usually separated from the rest of the street, but road crossings are grade integrated. The reason they're so successful over there is because the North American culture of privileging the illusion of safety, and letting every random Tom, Dick, and Harry sue the state/city/company for their own inability to look out for their own well being hasn't been imported over there, yet, and therefore they run trams at full power and full braking in between stops.

Nothing we couldn't do over here, other than the fact that we might have to accept that life inherently features some degree of risk.

eah some subways & mainline rail do have track brakes, but fortunately not all do

What part of this is something that is "fortunate"? Track brakes are a safety feature that is used to bring trams to a stop quickly. Is this a bad thing to have?

I don't know what the subway fleet uses, but they also have an emergency braking system, so I assume that their equivalent to track brakes just looks different.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Not sure if a silly question, but where is the TTC CEO in all of this? Perhaps not my understanding of process, but I'm surprised the chair of the board making announcements? Is that typical? I'm thinking back to days of Byford who seemed to be all over the press...not sure I remember what the new CEO looks like...

Leary and now Mandeep Lali don't really appear in the media much

 

[youngblood]

7:30 min in - "the issue has been resolved"...."yes we are on track"

"Transit signal upgrades will not be fully implimented until may"

Issues identified and solved. We are on track.

So are we opening February 8th or what???

 

[urbanclient]

Most European cities have tram lines that look, at least superficially, like line 6 and the eastern section of line 5

Yes I agree. But I'll expand on the caveat you already mentioned "at least superficially". European trams are often run on functionally wide ROWs, regardless of grade/traffic separation.

I exaggerate here: the reality is far from a European cobblestone street barely fitting the width of single tram, vs. wide 7-8 lane stroads that totally could fit a tram, but don't have a tram, that you'll see outside Toronto in the wider GTA.

I've made previous posts on this comparing the wider ROWs of Brussels and Frankfurt to the comparatively narrower Finch West.

I don't know what the subway fleet uses, but they also have an emergency braking system, so I assume that their equivalent to track brakes just looks different.

In emergencies, subways without magnetic track brakes cannot stop nearly as fast as those with them. In a nutshell: electromagnet sticks to the track and scrapes the track. You can look up the deceleration numbers, they're hugely different, I won't bore the thread with more math.

Maybe not the most apt wording, I think they might be saying 'fortunately' not all need magnetic track brakes, the implication being that this was necessitated by weak grade separation, which would also imply lower average speeds. It's good to have magnetic track brakes as an emergency failsafe, but noone uses them in regular service.

 

[pleaseLRT]

7:30 min in - "the issue has been resolved"...."yes we are on track"

"Transit signal upgrades will not be fully implimented until may"

Brian Weatherhead ("BW"), CTV News
Jamaal Myers ("JM")

7:25 BW: "We understand there's some emergency breaking issues on the Eglinton West line, uh, random emergency breaking. Is this going to slow down the opening or change the opening in any way?"

7:45 JM: "Yes, so the TTC again is the operator of these lines. Metrolinx is the builder and the owner. Metrolinx has worked through the safety critical items that the TTC identified that would be required to open the line. However, we did find an issue with the emergency break issues. The issue has been resolved; Metrolinx found that issue. So, I will defer to TTC as to when they'll make the announcements as to the opening, but yes we are on track."

8:13 BW: "Ok, the only other question I have is: Will the train be rolled out in the same manner as Finch - very slowly - will the speed be very slow like we saw with Finch?"

8:25 JM: "We've learned the lessons from Finch and we are making sure that we don't repeat those mistakes. There will be some transit signal priority upgrades that will be happening, but those upgrades will not be fully implemented until May."

 

[Chaplinurbex]

Brian Weatherhead ("BW"), CTV News
Jamaal Myers ("JM")

7:25 BW: "We understand there's some emergency breaking issues on the Eglinton West line, uh, random emergency breaking. Is this going to slow down the opening or change the opening in any way?"

7:45 JM: "Yes, so the TTC again is the operator of these lines. Metrolinx is the builder and the owner. Metrolinx has worked through the safety critical items that the TTC identified that would be required to open the line. However, we did find an issue with the emergency break issues. The issue has been resolved; Metrolinx found that issue. So, I will defer to TTC as to when they'll make the announcements as to the opening, but yes we are on track."

8:13 BW: "Ok, the only other question I have is: Will the train be rolled out in the same manner as Finch - very slowly - will the speed be very slow like we saw with Finch?"

8:25 JM: "We've learned the lessons from Finch and we are making sure that we don't repeat those mistakes. There will be some transit signal priority upgrades that will be happening, but those upgrades will not be fully implemented until May."

I take this as good news. Now they just need to actually make the announcement.

 

[81-717]

What part of this is something that is "fortunate"? Track brakes are a safety feature that is used to bring trams to a stop quickly. Is this a bad thing to have?

Maybe not the most apt wording, I think they might be saying 'fortunately' not all need magnetic track brakes

Correct, it's fortunate that most subways & mainline trains have some kind of safety braking features that doesn't require the unsightly design of 0 ground clearance (though the sanding equipment on most locomotives isn't so great either, but at least it's barely noticeable and still leaves higher clearance).

 

[smallspy]

Correct, it's fortunate that most subways & mainline trains have some kind of safety braking features that doesn't require the unsightly design of 0 ground clearance (though the sanding equipment on most locomotives isn't so great either, but at least it's barely noticeable and still leaves higher clearance).

All trains have zero ground clearance. The wheels have to roll on something and its not air.

By the way, you won't want to look at too many German or Eastern European types of railway rolling stock, including high speed trains - they almost always have track brakes.

Dan