T3G
Senior Member
I think that the summary of it as an issue of stop spacing is nonsense. 400-500 m stop spacing is common on European tramways, and they don't crawl in between stops.
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- Thread starter Monarch Butterfly
- Start date
Bojaxs
Senior Member
The worst offender on the ION is the two turns located near the intersection of Hayward & Courtland Ave. If the city has successfully convinced Graybar to move their office, they could have straighten out the alignment there.
lowtrain
New Member
I strongly disagree. I travelled to Warsaw recently where the tram network is excellent, fast and on schedule with multiple lines overlapping and no bunching. Stops in the city centre are spaced 400-500 meters apart (vs 280m avg spacing on Spadina source), meanwhile suburban lines which resemble the Finch line have stops that are 800m apart. Stop spacing is absolutely one of the biggest issues with the tram network in Toronto.
lastcommodore
New Member
On stop spacing of 6FW vs. ION,
1. Yes, stop spacing does influence average speeds
2. No, stop spacing is not the biggest factor in making 6FW slower than ION - it is by far operations
3. I don't see the turns on ION being taken much faster. I obviously do not know the exact specifications, but from my measurements they're about 25m minimum in curve radius, which is usually taken at 15-10km max with current low-floor trams. I do not know exactly how well different types of rolling stock can take them.
Boring data time form my Big Spreadsheet of Transit Data:
| Avg. Speed (kmh) | Avg. Stop Spacing (m) | |
|---|---|---|
| ION, Willis Way to Mill Stn. | 17.8 | 743 |
| 6 Finch West | 13.0 | 606 |
| Paris T9 | 19.1 | 572 |
| CTrain Blue, Kerby to BVC Stn. | 14.1 | 430 |
Takeaways: These speeds mainly show a mix of infrastructure realities and operational ability. CTrain kind of pulls all the stops out to make it operate fast in the downtown core, and it shows, managing to eek out 6FW despite super short stop spacing. Even though ION has good operations and farther stop spacing, it still loses to T9 with (by Toronto standards) insane operating standards that could never fly here and less curves.
So: Stop spacing does matter. Currently, operations matter more. If operations was good, I am pretty sure stop spacing/route shape would be the next bottleneck.
(Edit: I considered TSP as part of Operations. Separately, I agree with nfitz and i'd rank Ops, then TSP, then Stop Spacing in decreasing importance.)
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nfitz
Superstar
Excellent post. Another factor is TPS. Waterloo has very good TPS. I'd rank TPS as a bigger bottleneck than stop spacing/route. Perhaps even more so than operations - or perhaps not.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
How fast is "too fast" on curves or turns?
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
what the ****.
T3G
Senior Member
????
The post I made, and the post I was responding to, were both talking about Finch. I don't see what relevance the stop spacing on Spadina has to this discussion. I agree that the downtown network has excessively close stops, but that's neither nor there.
I don't see what justification exists to remove any stops on Finch other than Stevenson and Pearldale.
urbanclient
Active Member
I think the point is: stop spacing only gets to be like Finch at its narrowest when a line is in a European city centre (~300-400m). Finch West is pretty far from the city centre, and not that dense. An equivalently dense / far-flung European line would probably have wider stop spacing than the 600m average on Line 6. Really no good reason for Finch West to have the stop spacing it has now, were it not for the (ill-conceived) plan to fully replace buses.
I agree with you though @T3G , stop spacing is certainly not the first-order bottleneck for average speeds as that CityNews article suggests. It's probably something like: number 1&2, TSP & snail-like operations enforced by automatic braking, then stop spacing, and finally the tight curves near the terminuses / poorly-turning garbage rolling stock.
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dowlingm
Senior Member
Admiral Beez
Superstar
lastcommodore
New Member
I think the problem is the TTC seems to take the zero in vision zero seriously given they have such insane speed restritions in the name of VZ that not even the founders of VZ implemented.
That being said- I am never a fan of these bits where someone makes a slogan that explicitly states the 'extreme' position- here, zero deaths, but when actually pressured about it its actually the less extreme position, oh and also youre arguing in bad faith for saying I want the extreme position, and so on... Can we just say what we actually believe and not strawman ourselves? I never liked the term 'Vision Zero' for this.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Any adjustor (or Six Sigma grad) would say there is an a reasonable level of expected faults (i.e. death) in any system or process. Zero is an impossible goal, and thus making it an unreachable objective, where by its binary nature means you fail every day no matter how hard you try, results eventually in apathy. Instead we need to set a reasonable number of faults (deaths and injuries), ideally by looking at the safest systems in the world, and use them as the goal.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Vision Zero – a history
Car-free Central Park, New York City Vision Zero flows from a Safe Systems approach to road safety management in which human life and health is the first and foremost consideration when designing a…
actionvisionzero.org
It can be argued that certain decisions and limitations do not accord with VZ principles even while branded as VZ, because political chicanery. But give me a choice between Swedish practicality and The Six Sigma Wheel of Domination, I'll trust the Swedes.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
I don't have a background in urban planning but every friggin change the city implements seems to make things worse!Vision Zero – a history
Car-free Central Park, New York City Vision Zero flows from a Safe Systems approach to road safety management in which human life and health is the first and foremost consideration when designing a…
It can be argued that certain decisions and limitations do not accord with VZ principles even while branded as VZ, because political chicanery. But give me a choice between Swedish practicality and The Six Sigma Wheel of Domination, I'll trust the Swedes.
Lowering speed limits from 60 to 40 on the Queensway mean drivers are MORE aggressive since you now have a greater "mix" of speeds travelled
I frequent an area where the roads were narrowed and it results in vehicles drifting past their lane more frequently, and snow/rain are a much bigger issue due to reduced width!
Lastly delaying the oncoming green signal after an advanced left turn resulted IN MORE CARS illegally turning left on a red light (stunt driving)