[untitled space craft]

I was standing at Dundas and Spadina last night to check if the new TSP was active. The good news is that phase rotation is indeed live, and I saw 3 streetcars proceed through the north-south green, followed by a lagging left once the streetcars have passed. Hooray!

However, the signals were definitely not operating as I (or I suspect, many on this forum) would like. For one, I stuck around to watch about 10 streetcars pass through the intersection, most of which did not get a phase rotation. The left turn phase came before the north-south phase, as we have come to expect. Also, there were no green extensions, so streetcars arriving just after the yellow had to wait the entire red phase while they waited for traffic on Dundas to pass. (I've been told that Green/Don't Walk green extensions are not typically used on Spadina)

The signal also seemed to misbehave a few times, twice showing a white bar over red transit signal (a streetcar turn signal?) while there were no approaching streetcars, and briefly flashing red on all sides. (The all-red flash was resolved in a few minutes.)

You'll note that there is no TSP whatsoever, so if the only change they make is to add phase rotation, there will still be long delays for streetcars.

^The above message appears to be disappointingly accurate...

 

[reaperexpress]

I was standing at Dundas and Spadina last night to check if the new TSP was active. The good news is that phase rotation is indeed live, and I saw 3 streetcars proceed through the north-south green, followed by a lagging left once the streetcars have passed. Hooray!

Thank you for these detailed observations! This is great context for what has been accomplished (and what has not yet been accomplished)

However, the signals were definitely not operating as I (or I suspect, many on this forum) would like. For one, I stuck around to watch about 10 streetcars pass through the intersection, most of which did not get a phase rotation. The left turn phase came before the north-south phase, as we have come to expect.

Phase rotation makes the streetcar phase start earlier, but it also makes the streetcar phase end earlier, which could increase delay for a streetcar coming the opposite direction during the same cycle. So it's best to only use it for streetcars that have an above-average headway since those are the most important streetcars to prioritize. Is it possible that phase rotation was only available for streetcars with an above-average headway?

Also, there were no green extensions, so streetcars arriving just after the yellow had to wait the entire red phase while they waited for traffic on Dundas to pass.

How do you know there weren't green extensions? Were you timing the green durations?

(I suspect you're correct but I'm curious about the robustness of your methodology)

The signal also seemed to misbehave a few times, twice showing a white bar over red transit signal (a streetcar turn signal?) while there were no approaching streetcars

White bar over red is the indication for a streetcar/bus turn phase in Toronto. You can see an example at 4:01 in this video at Spadina & College, where it's used by a 506 College streetcar on diversion.

.

Assuming the timings at Dundas are similar to the signal timings at Spadina & College, the north-south turning streetcar phase is "Callable by North-South turning streetcar via interrogator". The interrogator is a sensor that's part of the track switch control system, so basically it should only be called if a streetcar sets the switch to a "turn" direction. There are a variety of failures that could cause the phase (issue with the interrogator, issue with the connection to the controller, issue in the programming, etc) but I don't think any of them would have anything to do with adding phase rotation. Maybe it's an unrelated failure that was pre-existing?

, and briefly flashing red on all sides. (The all-red flash was resolved in a few minutes.)

Oof that's bad. All-red flash occurs when the controller completely shuts down due to a critical failure, such as providing insufficient yellow time or getting a major error that requires a full system restart.

 

[untitled space craft]

Is it possible that phase rotation was only available for streetcars with an above-average headway?

I'm not sure about this. I wasn't timing the headway of streetcars, but some of them were definitely bunching.

How do you know there weren't green extensions? Were you timing the green durations?

(I suspect you're correct but I'm curious about the robustness of your methodology)

I was watching the pedestrian countdown, which always ended at the same time as the transit/car N-S green. If I understand correctly, a green extension would hold the transit/car N-S green after the pedestrian clock counted down to zero, as shown in one of your clips. I don't know what the typical or extended green duration is.

Maybe it's an unrelated failure that was pre-existing?

Could be; your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Undead]

Please read the City of Toronto Lane Width Guideline for more information.

Amazing.

 

[reaperexpress]

I was watching the pedestrian countdown, which always ended at the same time as the transit/car N-S green. If I understand correctly, a green extension would hold the transit/car N-S green after the pedestrian clock counted down to zero, as shown in one of your clips. I don't know what the typical or extended green duration is.

That video is an excerpt of a larger video I haven't finished yet. There will also be a section on Green/Walk extensions, which are much more common than Green/Don't Walk extensions. For example Walk extensions are programmed at Spadina & Nassau:

At the intersections along Spadina with lots of track switches, they'd definitely extend the light in Walk since streetcar operators are quite hesitant to enter the intersection during Flashing Don't Walk due to how long it takes to cross the intersection with the 10 km/h limit through switches. From my observations at College & Spadina, it takes about 27 seconds for a streetcar to cross the intersection, whereas the all-red clearance time is only 3.8 seconds plus 3.0 seconds of yellow.

If they extended the light after the end of the countdown, it wouldn't actually speed up streetcars since operators would have already decided to stop and wait for the next cycle by that point.

 

[Steve X]

The problem with extended green on Spadina at major intersection is they crawl through them and it creates a massive backup on side streets.

 

[untitled space craft]

That video is an excerpt of a larger video I haven't finished yet. There will also be a section on Green/Walk extensions, which are much more common than Green/Don't Walk extensions. For example Walk extensions are programmed at Spadina & Nassau:
View attachment 713097

At the intersections along Spadina with lots of track switches, they'd definitely extend the light in Walk since streetcar operators are quite hesitant to enter the intersection during Flashing Don't Walk due to how long it takes to cross the intersection with the 10 km/h limit through switches. From my observations at College & Spadina, it takes about 27 seconds for a streetcar to cross the intersection, whereas the all-red clearance time is only 3.8 seconds plus 3.0 seconds of yellow.

If they extended the light after the end of the countdown, it wouldn't actually speed up streetcars since operators would have already decided to stop and wait for the next cycle by that point.

I see. If that's the case, then I'm not sure if the intersection has green extensions or not. I'll update my original post to clarify.

 

[reaperexpress]

The problem with extended green on Spadina at major intersection is they crawl through them and it creates a massive backup on side streets.

That's not a problem with extended green, that's a problem with the red clearance intervals (ultimately caused by terrible track switches). If you give streetcars 4 seconds of all-red clearance (7 seconds total intergreen) but it actually takes 27 seconds to cross the intersection then you can't be surprised when some streetcars block the next phase. That happened several times in my video of College and Spadina which was filmed at a time when there were definitely no green extensions. See for example at 2:27:

 

[adys123]

One thing I'll note (in addition to @untitled space craft) about my observations at Spadina and Dundas, it appears that only SB streetcars can trigger a phase rotation (for now) and it is triggered everytime, even when they are bunched. From my crude timing, it appears that there were no extensions as signal timings were consistent across multiple cycles.

 

[ssiguy2]

Obviously streetcar priority is a great idea and well overdue. One of the problems implementing it in Toronto however, is the number of stops. Light priority is more difficult to implement the more stops you have and Toronto stop spacing is simply too close to one another.

Of course allowing the TTC alone to make the decision on where to cut the stops will be overwhelmed by petty politics and the TTC's endless bureaucracy and this is where the local community comes in. The TTC should make a blanket demand of getting rid of 1 stop per km across the entire streetcar network with NO exceptions for any area or route INCLUDIN Finch & the street running portion of Eglinton. They allow the neighbourhood/community associations to make the decision on which stop to get rid of/consolidate thru public consultations and have them report back within 2 months.

The ONLY input from the TTC should should be providing a map of the area and if there are any corners that cannot have a stop at them due to logistical issues and/or other issues ie in front of a fire hydrant/station etc. It would be a decision made by the community and not top heavy which invites discourse and inertia. Conversely, the TTC should NOT be able to over ride the decisions of the community so it's not just seen as yet another public relations exercise resulting in absolutely nothing getting done. Added to this, the TTC MUST implement the new stops within 3 months of the decision by the locals.

This would greatly increase speeds along the route with fewer stops and make signal priority not only easier to implement but also gain more benefits from it. and put the decision back into the hand of where such decisions should be made in the first place.........the TTC patrons.

 

[robmausser]

I was standing at Dundas and Spadina last night to check if the new TSP was active. The good news is that phase rotation is indeed live, and I saw 3 streetcars proceed through the north-south green, followed by a lagging left once the streetcars have passed. Hooray!

However, the signals were definitely not operating as I (or I suspect, many on this forum) would like. For one, I stuck around to watch about 10 streetcars pass through the intersection, most of which did not get a phase rotation. The left turn phase came before the north-south phase, as we have come to expect. Also, there were no green extensions, so streetcars arriving just after the yellow had to wait the entire red phase while they waited for traffic on Dundas to pass. (I've been told that Green/Don't Walk green extensions are not typically used on Spadina)

The signal also seemed to misbehave a few times, twice showing a white bar over red transit signal (a streetcar turn signal?) while there were no approaching streetcars, and briefly flashing red on all sides. (The all-red flash was resolved in a few minutes.)


^The above message appears to be disappointingly accurate...

I would like to see them implement what I call "forced left" on street running streetcar routes. When a streetcar is at an intersection behind a red, with cars infront of it, the cars get an advanced left until the streetcar crosses the intersection. Basically, get the left turning cars out of the way.

I realize it would not be a perfect system and would be problematic if two opposing streetcars are at an intersection, but would still solve delays I think.

The other solution is of course to ban lefts at intersections, but its not always possible, especially major ones.

 

[reaperexpress]

I would like to see them implement what I call "forced left" on street running streetcar routes. When a streetcar is at an intersection behind a red, with cars infront of it, the cars get an advanced left until the streetcar crosses the intersection. Basically, get the left turning cars out of the way.

I realize it would not be a perfect system and would be problematic if two opposing streetcars are at an intersection, but would still solve delays I think.

This is pretty much the only good solution for situations where we need to allow cars to turn left from the streetcar tracks, such as at Bathurst and Adelaide. In the longer term it would be better to spread the tracks to create a left turn lane off the tracks, but in the meantime we could proactively call left turn arrows ahead of a streetcar. Currently southbound streetcars can already extend the left turn arrow at the start of the green, but if they show up later in the green they just get a normal extended green (with no left turn arrow) so they could be stuck waiting behind a left turning car.

For streetcars that approach later in the green, the signal should pull up a second southbound left turn arrow (once any northbound streetcar has cleared), and hold it until the streetcar reaches the intersection.

The Southbound Left signal stage would be the same as today (extendable by southbound streetcars):

The North-South stage would continue to be extendable by northbound streetcars as it is today, but it could be truncated by southbound streetcars if there's no northbound streetcar.

A second Southbound Left stage would occur only if there's a southbound streetcar approaching. It would stay on until the streetcar reaches the stop line:

The eastbound stage would be unchanged. It's already the minimum pedestrian duration (kind of, there's too much red clearance after the pedestrian countdown reaches zero, but that's a whole other discussion).

The TSP system is already set up such that if there are conflicting TSP calls for extension and truncation of the same phase, the extension always overrides the truncation. So with this setup there actually wouldn't be much negative impact on northbound streetcars.

The other solution is of course to ban lefts at intersections, but its not always possible, especially major ones.

Banning lefts is definitely the most effective way of eliminating delays from left turns blocking the tracks. It is insane that they still allow people to turn left from College onto Spadina, considering you can easily make a right turn instead and do a U-turn at Spadina Crescent or Nassau.

According to the timing card for Spadina & College, there is a 6-second left turn arrow during the PM peak period (14s total including amber and red), wasting time that could otherwise go to streetcars, and inviting drivers to turn left and block the streetcar tracks.

 

[thunderbird2678]

One thing I'll note (in addition to @untitled space craft) about my observations at Spadina and Dundas, it appears that only SB streetcars can trigger a phase rotation (for now) and it is triggered everytime, even when they are bunched. From my crude timing, it appears that there were no extensions as signal timings were consistent across multiple cycles.

Following up on this, it seems that NB cars can proc the phase rotation as well now. Was just on a NB 510, we hit a yellow light, waited the cross cycle on Dundas, then got to go straight through the intersection immediately after. Once our straight through cycle on Spadina ended, the left turn phase triggered.

Cautiously optimistic about finally seeing this happen, maybe there's hope yet.

 

[max]

That video is an excerpt of a larger video I haven't finished yet. There will also be a section on Green/Walk extensions, which are much more common than Green/Don't Walk extensions. For example Walk extensions are programmed at Spadina & Nassau:
View attachment 713097

At the intersections along Spadina with lots of track switches, they'd definitely extend the light in Walk since streetcar operators are quite hesitant to enter the intersection during Flashing Don't Walk due to how long it takes to cross the intersection with the 10 km/h limit through switches. From my observations at College & Spadina, it takes about 27 seconds for a streetcar to cross the intersection, whereas the all-red clearance time is only 3.8 seconds plus 3.0 seconds of yellow.

If they extended the light after the end of the countdown, it wouldn't actually speed up streetcars since operators would have already decided to stop and wait for the next cycle by that point.

Just a question about the timing cards, is this information somewhere the public can access? Right now, I'm most concerned with the Spadina changes being made, but I also would like to check them out for any given intersection if possible.

 

[reaperexpress]

Just a question about the timing cards, is this information somewhere the public can access? Right now, I'm most concerned with the Spadina changes being made, but I also would like to check them out for any given intersection if possible.

Sort of... They will email current timing cards to anyone who asks for it, but they charge $131.55 for the privilege.
toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/traffic-management/traffic-signals-street-signs/request-signal-timing-information

Responding to a signal timing request at a non-adaptive intersection like those on Spadina consists of going into the Excel file for the intersection and saving the current tab as a pdf.

If we conservatively assume it takes 15 minutes to save the pdf and respond to the email, that would imply that the staff is getting paid $520/h. I'm sure wages for co-op students have gone up since I was one, but I doubt they're getting paid that much.

They claim we can't obtain the timing cards through a Freedom of Information request, yet that's exactly how we got the timing cards for Montreal's Pie-IX BRT (which is how we discovered that their TSP does basically nothing).