[McGillicuddy]

I think the decision on tunnelling vs. elevated vs. other station vs. kludging it into the existing station is likely going to come down to passenger experience and administrative convenience, rather than construction limitations. The fact that all of these solutions are technically viable is interesting, but it's worth asking: how might the sales and marketing people feel about the prospect of a business lounge located seven storeys underground?

Conversely, how might the stakeholder relations people feel about shepherding a massive elevated structure through the centre of a major city? (And how might everybody concerned feel about making people take a three-block walking transfer to reach Union from an off-campus ALTO hub?)

IMO, these considerations are going to be the tiebreakers.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Sounds like the rail fanatics have a few conflicting interpretations coming from these open houses, but it doesn’t surprise nor concern me. They are only just starting a long design process and the most important goal at this stage is to make inroads with the critics/naysayers/NIMBYs. The staff have been trained for those conversations more than what details to disclose for us nerds.

 

[micheal_can]

I think the decision on tunnelling vs. elevated vs. other station vs. kludging it into the existing station is likely going to come down to passenger experience and administrative convenience, rather than construction limitations. The fact that all of these solutions are technically viable is interesting, but it's worth asking: how might the sales and marketing people feel about the prospect of a business lounge located seven storeys underground?

Conversely, how might the stakeholder relations people feel about shepherding a massive elevated structure through the centre of a major city? (And how might everybody concerned feel about making people take a three-block walking transfer to reach Union from an off-campus ALTO hub?)

IMO, these considerations are going to be the tiebreakers.

If you don't not know you are seven stories underground, why would it matter? If there are good elevators and escalators and it is well lit and decorated, why would it matter? Ideally, ALTO is often enough that you are not there long enough that it matters.

As far as elevated, how do you deal with the 'eyesore' that people may say it is? We all know how much everyone loves the elevated section that is the Gardiner. And then you need to figure out how to get it through Union without destroying the historic landmark. Sure, if you want to tear that train shed down, it become easier, but is that something acceptable to the public?

 

[micheal_can]

Sounds like the rail fanatics have a few conflicting interpretations coming from these open houses, but it doesn’t surprise nor concern me. They are only just starting a long design process and the most important goal at this stage is to make inroads with the critics/naysayers/NIMBYs. The staff have been trained for those conversations more than what details to disclose for us nerds.

Any open house I have ever been to about anything I have always noticed how noncommittal they are, but how welcoming they are to ideas and issues they may not have thought about. Mind you, those ones all have been about projects that had a plan. ALTO currently is working on their plan.

 

[Bojaxs]

Just for context, here's some drone footage of the currently under construction elevated tracks & Curzon Street station in Birmingham. HS2 won't be sharing any tracks with any existing rail going into Birmingham. It will be entirely on it's own ROW.

Judging by the size of the construction site, I don't think it's realistic to expect HSR to be elevated going into Toronto. Tunneling will probably be the best course.

Much of the land that the tracks and station are being built on in Birmingham was fairly barren. Not being used for any sole purpose. Here's a google street view image of the area from 2008.

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[lenaitch]

The engineer also had something else to say about the small-town side of things, which frankly I hadn't considered and think they should mention more often. Building the line will be a major undertaking with lots of jobs, etc. Maintaining the line on a daily basis will be an even greater, and perpetual, undertaking. All that maintenance will likely be done on contract with small, local businesses. So each small town might not get a stop, but will get a lot of new and constant business keeping the line working properly, and (hopefully) will get some kind of public transit to the nearest Alto station.

Depending on what you mean by "small town", I don't envision Alto proving a lot on benefits post construction. I expect MOW will be a handful of contracts and, as mentioned above, deployed to 50 km (ish) spacings.

Coordinated public transit also comes up in the Northlander thread. That isn't an Alto (ONR) issue. Local transit is a local issue with provincial financial support. Many of the "small towns" simply can't support or justify transit.

 

[lastcommodore]

Sounds like the rail fanatics have a few conflicting interpretations coming from these open houses, but it doesn’t surprise nor concern me. They are only just starting a long design process and the most important goal at this stage is to make inroads with the critics/naysayers/NIMBYs. The staff have been trained for those conversations more than what details to disclose for us nerds.

At the St. Lawrence open house one told me that they were set on a sealed corridor and another told me that they are considering track sharing. I think it's fair to say until plans are finalised the plans are not final, which perhaps may be considered a hot take

 

[generalcanada]

I mean they also told me lucien l'allier is possible. which would mean using the trackage from dorval.
I assume the reason for mixed messaging is because of the term "everything and anything is on the table"

 

[Mihairokov]

Great, now I'm picturing a Toronto version of Berlin's Hauptbahnhof.

 

[micheal_can]

Depending on what you mean by "small town", I don't envision Alto proving a lot on benefits post construction. I expect MOW will be a handful of contracts and, as mentioned above, deployed to 50 km (ish) spacings.

Coordinated public transit also comes up in the Northlander thread. That isn't an Alto (ONR) issue. Local transit is a local issue with provincial financial support. Many of the "small towns" simply can't support or justify transit.

If they cannot support transit,why would having an ALTO stop make sense. My only caveat to that would be Kingston. If you can get within a reasonable distance, a bus connection may make sense. That bus connection should be run by ALTO.

 

[smallspy]

At the St. Lawrence open house one told me that they were set on a sealed corridor and another told me that they are considering track sharing. I think it's fair to say until plans are finalised the plans are not final, which perhaps may be considered a hot take

Both are possible at the same time.

They could be considering track sharing within Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec just to allow access to the stations.

And they would have a sealed corridor out away from the cities in order to build the fastest possible track alignment.

Dan

 

[TwoWheelPoli]

Both are possible at the same time.

They could be considering track sharing within Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec just to allow access to the stations.

And they would have a sealed corridor out away from the cities in order to build the fastest possible track alignment.

Dan

Makes perfect sense to me. I did hear about the tunnel option for Union Station as well which would undoubtedly add costs. Definitely will need to keep an eye open on what the final alignment ends up being.

 

[lenaitch]

If they cannot support transit,why would having an ALTO stop make sense. My only caveat to that would be Kingston. If you can get within a reasonable distance, a bus connection may make sense. That bus connection should be run by ALTO.

Alto will support local transit by being there. Do you expect Air Canada or Westjet to operate Mississauga Transit and the TTC? Should VIA operate buses to and from its corridor stops?

 

[micheal_can]

Alto will support local transit by being there. Do you expect Air Canada or Westjet to operate Mississauga Transit and the TTC? Should VIA operate buses to and from its corridor stops?

I would expect the airport authority to operate the UP or other express buses. Via did operate bus services throughout Canada.

 

[smallspy]

I would expect the airport authority to operate the UP or other express buses.

They don't today. Why would that change tomorrow?

Via did operate bus services throughout Canada.

No they didn't. They operated one bus to connect to trains from Ottawa to Cornwall before they bulked the service up to Ottawa.

They did partner with a bus line in the Maritimes, but that didn't last particularly long. Mainly because there wasn't the ridership for it.

Dan