[EBT]

Except Pearson isn't at capacity, and Hamilton makes a lot more sense as a relief valve airport than BB, which is inherently an un-scalable airport.

London (UK) City airport is also un-scalable, but it is thriving and popular because of its unmatched convenience offering direct access to the financial capital of Europe. For example, British Airways flies an A319 in all business-class configuration from London City to JFK. The flight has the same flight number that the Concorde once had "BA1" (callsign "speedbird 1"). After the demise of the Concorde, this flight from London City offers the fastest way to fly commercial from the City of London and Canary Wharf to JFK. If the runway at BB is extended, we could see similar flights between Toronto's financial city center and London City and perhaps Paris and Zurich.

When the Bombardier C-Series was launched one of the first orders was from an airline that proposed flying all-business class flights between BB and London City. It was contingent on extension of BB airport's runway an extension that did not occur. The airline never got off the ground, and the C-Series is now the Airbus A220.

Having an airport that can connect downtown Toronto to the financial capitals of Europe while avoiding Pearson is a very compelling business case for the province and it would provide a much needed shot in Toronto's anemic economic arm. This new expanded airport would also bring all of the major west coast cities in range as well as Mexico and Caribbean vacation destinations and everything in between.

If this proposed extension of the airport runway goes ahead, I anticipate many of the short-range Q-400s along with general aviation will be displaced by Airbus A220s (built in Montreal!) and Embraer E2s. Billy Bishop Airport will become a very coveted hence expensive landing spot for the simple reason that time is money especially considering BB will become a major destination for private jets. Think of the time savings if you are flying into Toronto for a one-day meeting downtown in your company's private jet. Do you want to land at Pearson or BB? Billy Bishop will become like Teterboro! An expanded runway that can accommodate a A220 should be able to handle a Bombardier Global 8000 or Gulfstream G800! Jets that have eight-thousand-mile ranges! Singapore could be within reach of downtown Toronto NON-STOP!

 

[seanlucat]

London (UK) City airport is also un-scalable, but it is thriving and popular because of its unmatched convenience offering direct access to the financial capital of Europe. For example, British Airways flies an A319 in all business-class configuration from London City to JFK. The flight has the same flight number that the Concorde once had "BA1" (callsign "speedbird 1"). After the demise of the Concorde, this flight from London City offers the fastest way to fly commercial from the Town of London and Canary Wharf to JFK. If the runway at BB is extended, we could see similar flights between Toronto's financial city center and London City and perhaps Paris and Zurich.

When the Bombardier C-Series was launched one of the first orders was from an airline that proposed flying all-business class flights between BB and London City. It was contingent on extension of BB airport's runway an extension that did not occur. The airline never got off the ground, and the C-Series is now the Airbus A220.

Having an airport that can connect downtown Toronto to the financial capitals of Europe while avoiding Pearson is a very compelling business case for the province and it would provide a much needed shot in Toronto's anemic economic arm. This new expanded airport would also bring all of the major west coast cities in range as well as Mexico and Caribbean vacation destinations and everything in between.

If this proposed extension of the airport runway goes ahead, I anticipate many of the short-range Q-400s along with general aviation will be displaced by Airbus A220s (built in Montreal!) and Embraer E2s. Billy Bishop Airport will become a very coveted hence expensive landing spot for the simple reason that time is money especially considering BB will become a major destination for private jets. Think of the time savings if you are flying into Toronto for a one-day meeting downtown in your company's private jet. Do you want to land at Pearson or BB? Billy Bishop will become like Teterboro! An expanded runway that can accommodate a A220 should be able to handle a Bombardier Global 8000 or Gulfstream G800! Jets that have eight-thousand-mile ranges! Singapore could be within reach of downtown Toronto NON-STOP!

That BA flight was put on a hiatus march 2020 (covid) and then cancelled in august of 2020. it was an a318, required a refuelling stop in Ireland to make it across the Atlantic and it was economically unviable.

But yea like you said, with an extension BB could easily become a niche business focused airport with some longer distance routes, akin to DCA and LCY, with E2, a220, Q400s and a good handful of private jets. (no doubt ford's cronies would love having their PJ's at BB)

 

[Obsidian]

Ford really doesn't understand aviation, like most things, and a lot of these decisions are really just him talking out of his backside.

In terms of jets Runway 06 would only be usable for landings and to extend it outward, runway 24 would only be usable for takeoffs. Runway 06 when extended would need to introduce at least CAT I if not CAT II or CAT III(?) with the potential for CAT IIIc for autoland in inclement weather. Though, that assumes there are any narrowbody jets that support IIIc, that I haven't looked into.

Depending on the jets that are intended to land after the extension of the runway or creation of a new runway... Where are they going to park? What obstacles exist on taxiways that larger jets would have to clear? Sure, we could do RJ2/7/900's, maybe even an E175?? However, without the expansion of the terminal to expand the gates, we're going to run into what Gate 173/175/177 in T1 at Pearson run into every time an A388 needs to use those gates for boarding.

I'm concerned that this entire thing is just going to be a massive cash sink when it could be better spent elsewhere.

I do not want this 'project' if we can even call it that having a single shovel hitting the ground because I know it's not going to be done in the how many other years he has left.

Meanwhile we have the Sheppard Subway expansion waiting for years to be financed. and which would actually benefit Toronto.

 

[SubHuman]

London (UK) City airport ... British Airways flies an A319 in all business-class configuration from London City to JFK. ?

That BA flight was put on a hiatus march 2020 (covid) and then cancelled in august of 2020. it was an a318, required a refuelling stop in Ireland to make it across the Atlantic and it was economically unviable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_World_London_City
(btw -- Odyssey Airlines was the name of the proposed LCY-YTZ one, last heard from 10+ years ago trying to get money through crowd-funding.)

Having an airport that can connect downtown Toronto to the financial capitals of Europe while avoiding Pearson is a very compelling business case for the province ...

Not a very strong case, if British Airways couldn't make it work between London City and New York.

If this proposed extension of the airport runway goes ahead, I anticipate many of the short-range Q-400s along with general aviation will be displaced by Airbus A220s (built in Montreal!) ...

I suppose it's possible they could eventually consider buying the A220-100 to replace the Q400 turboprops, but I can't see them wanting to buy a bunch of new planes just for the purpose of using them at YTZ. (As mentioned previously in this thread, the A220-300 Air Canada presently uses would require a longer runway. And the Embraer E190-E2 would seem to be Porter's more likely potential choice.)

for the simple reason that time is money especially considering BB will become a major destination for private jets. Think of the time savings if you are flying into Toronto for a one-day meeting downtown in your company's private jet...

But yea like you said, with an extension BB could easily become a niche business focused airport ...
(no doubt ford's cronies would love having their PJ's at BB)

Maybe, but that doesn't sound like it "will reduce pressure at Pearson International [airport], increase competition, and bring cheaper flights, and options, more routes, and more convenience to the millions of people from across Ontario" as the premier said.

Also, FWIW -- Huge drop in flights at the Toronto Island Airport

What's going on?
Porter... operating jets out of Pearson Airport ... has led it to fundamentally change its business model - emphasizing flights out of Pearson and reducing its unprofitable use of the Island Airport.

 

[picard102]

If it is cheaper, the millions of people in the West GTA, Niagara, KW/Guelph, etc area could use that airport instead of BB to provide relief to Pearson passenger volumes.

It is cheaper and it's not drawing customers from Toronto.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't understand how Ford can do anything about BB. I know he loves to micro-manage Toronto but airports are 100% the domain of the federal government and is federal gov't land. They can listen to the concerns of the province but are under no obligation to follow thru on their requests. An expanding BB, I don't think, would be very popular with Torontonians and I don't think Carney is going to put some of those hard-core Toronto seats at risk just to appease Ford who probably won't even run in the next provincial election anyway.

 

[picard102]

An expanding BB, I don't think, would be very popular with Torontonians

71% support it according to a Campaign Research poll. It's a vocal minority opposed to it.

 

[Ward8]

71% support it according to a Campaign Research poll. It's a vocal minority opposed to it.

Nick Kouvalis is a cynical partisan hack and is notorious for his push polls. I'd be very skeptical of anything coming from him. Polls like this are deeply unscientific and its very easy to sway the outcome.

The level of controversy, across decades, suggests public opinion is likely more split than that.

 

[robmausser]

I don't understand how Ford can do anything about BB. I know he loves to micro-manage Toronto but airports are 100% the domain of the federal government and is federal gov't land. They can listen to the concerns of the province but are under no obligation to follow thru on their requests. An expanding BB, I don't think, would be very popular with Torontonians and I don't think Carney is going to put some of those hard-core Toronto seats at risk just to appease Ford who probably won't even run in the next provincial election anyway.

The thing is the Fed's wanted this and only were respecting the wishes of the city in the tripartite agreement.
With the city out of the deal they will do what is in their and the provinces interest.

 

[picard102]

Nick Kouvalis is a cynical partisan hack and is notorious for his push polls. I'd be very skeptical of anything coming from him. Polls like this are deeply unscientific and its very easy to sway the outcome.

The level of controversy, across decades, suggests public opinion is likely more split than that.

I'm sure as long as the poll is unfavorable to the anti-jets crowd there will be some reason to discount the polling.

Ford has come out saying they see 70% in support as well from their own polling, which I'm sure you'll say is not good enough as well.

The cities own polling a few years back in 2013 showed 47% supported the expansion, vs 45% who did not.
Is there a reason to discount Environics here you can come up with?

Seems like the airport expansion as been supported for a number of years and that support is growing.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Personally, I think that someone who has to live near the flightpath should have more of a say in this decision than someone who lives in Pickering.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

Meanwhile we have the Sheppard Subway expansion waiting for years to be financed. and which would actually benefit Toronto.

I'm not familiar, but I agree. There are so many other better plans for this.

I think the elephant in the room for me is the proximity to the new spa or whatever it is. There's no doubt in my mind that there were a backroom deal between Ford, the developers, and the property owners for Ford to benefit long after he's gone. This just seems like another one of his deals to benefit himself.

 

[Ward8]

I'm sure as long as the poll is unfavorable to the anti-jets crowd there will be some reason to discount the polling.

Ford has come out saying they see 70% in support as well from their own polling, which I'm sure you'll say is not good enough as well.

The cities own polling a few years back in 2013 showed 47% supported the expansion, vs 45% who did not.
Is there a reason to discount Environics here you can come up with?

Seems like the airport expansion as been supported for a number of years and that support is growing.

Kouvalis is, at best, an extremely controversial figure in local politics. That's pretty well established in the public record.

Ford is referencing that poll, not a separate government one. I could be wrong about that, but I didn't see any reference to a second poll.

47-45 seems to fit the level of controversy that has dogged this airport.

We have no idea if support is growing or not. Perhaps apathy has grown, as most people don't interact with Billy Bishop at all and there is no competing proposal.

 

[nfitz]

Now there's a "leftie" comment if I've ever seen one.

Oh come on ... did you ever sit and watch Doug Ford at council? I'm not convinced he can even read properly.

You can't see him working these days - just speeches and sound bites.

 

[ScreamingViking]

Oh come on ... did you ever sit and watch Doug Ford at council? I'm not convinced he can even read properly.

You can't see him working these days - just speeches and sound bites.

I consider myself 'centrist' and the statements that Ford is not terribly smart and comes up with 'off the cuff' ideas on multiple topics seem pretty accurate to me. Most of his odd ideas are NOTHING to do the most things he was actually voted in to do - improve health care and education, for example.

I added the laughing icon because my comment was meant as a joke.

I agree he's intellectually challenged, and doesn't act based on diligence.