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CMQSD402F9011 said:
Question, can the TTC special constable or officers be Deputized like that private Railroad police are in Canada?
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The TTC's security arrangements can be anywhere you like along a spectrum from fully civilian to literally military, pursuant to support from the appropriate levels of government.

The fact that they are Special Constables today is a political choice, not a fact of nature.
 
Northern Light said:
I could swear that was the exact point I made.



I don't recall asserting either of those assumptions.



Here, let me help:

Cost of prison in Canada:

https://johnhoward.ca/blog/financial-facts-canadian-prisons/

Average - $115,000 per year per person

Cost of Toronto shelters per person:


$253 per bed, per night. or $92, 345 per bed, per year.

Cost of a market rent studio apartment in Toronto, full price:

$1,500 per month



Again, I made no such assumptions or assertions.



There is no disagreement that if someone is violent or threatening or otherwise engaging in criminal behavior they can and mostly likely should be arrested. That was not the focus of the piece, the focus was arresting people for being encamped, tented or otherwise homeless even if they were guilty of nothing else.
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how can it cost $92k per bed per year in a shelter? if thats true, that has to be looked at.... there's no way thats right.
 
pmacpherson68 said:
how can it cost $92k per bed per year in a shelter? if thats true, that has to be looked at.... there's no way thats right.
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There's the capital cost of construction, which is similar, per bed, to a 1 bedroom condo, for much less space, of course for the occupant. But remember, the building typically has a secured lobby/staffed entrance, a security office, a social work office, laundry, kitchen, common areas, sometimes other specialty spaces.

Then there's the operating cost, 24/7 staffing, The exact staffing will vary by facility, if you have 2 shelter staff, 1 janitor, and 1 security present as a minimum, that's 4 people at any one time, but that's likely close to 16 full time equivalent; with medical/social work/employment/ etc. specialty staff who may not be in every day on top of that.

Take that global budget, that's over 2k per month for base staffing, per bed. It adds up quick. Don't forget the shelter supplies the bed, linens/pillows and all other furniture (common area tables/chairs/tvs etc.).

***

For just those reasons above, I favour building proper housing for independent living (apartments) for anyone capable of managing on their own, as its vastly cheaper.

Likewise, if someone requires significant, ongoing supervision or care, an LTC and/or Mental Health or Addiction facility is the better place for them, not a shelter.

Shelters in small numbers are arguably a necessity as a line of first response.

But thereafter, they are the worst of all worlds. They insufficiently safe for just about everyone, they have wholly inadequate care for those who require it; and they are both invasive and expensive for those who do not.
 
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Not sure if the guy was homeless. More likely a junkie. I was on a westbound Line 5 tram yesterday, and there was a guy completely passed out, sprawled across two seats. He had clearly urinated all over both seats. Genuinely has me second guessing whether I should ever sit down on public transit again. Or at least we need to make the shift to plastic seats.
 
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Urine is gross. I certainly can't fault anyone for not wanting to sit in urine.

Urine is also sterile, and rinses out of industrial fabrics pretty well. And, in general, you should assume that, in the downtown area of every major western city, every surface within three feet of the ground has been pissed on several times.
 
Northern Light said:
There's the capital cost of construction, which is similar, per bed, to a 1 bedroom condo, for much less space, of course for the occupant. But remember, the building typically has a secured lobby/staffed entrance, a security office, a social work office, laundry, kitchen, common areas, sometimes other specialty spaces.

Then there's the operating cost, 24/7 staffing, The exact staffing will vary by facility, if you have 2 shelter staff, 1 janitor, and 1 security present as a minimum, that's 4 people at any one time, but that's likely close to 16 full time equivalent; with medical/social work/employment/ etc. specialty staff who may not be in every day on top of that.

Take that global budget, that's over 2k per month for base staffing, per bed. It adds up quick. Don't forget the shelter supplies the bed, linens/pillows and all other furniture (common area tables/chairs/tvs etc.).

***

For just those reasons above, I favour building proper housing for independent living (apartments) for anyone capable of managing on their own, as its vastly cheaper.

Likewise, if someone requires significant, ongoing supervision or care, an LTC and/or Mental Health or Addiction facility is the better place for them, not a shelter.

Shelters in small numbers are arguably a necessity as a line of first response.

But thereafter, they are the worst of all worlds. They insufficiently safe for just about everyone, they have wholly inadequate care for those who require it; and they are both invasive and expensive for those who do not.
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so if you are gonna just build these people homes and let them live there for free, what about the rest of people who are struggling to make ends meet and get nothing for free... i dont think this solution is a fair one. Nothing in this world is free, its just built on other peoples money.
 
pmacpherson68 said:
so if you are gonna just build these people homes and let them live there for free, what about the rest of people who are struggling to make ends meet and get nothing for free... i dont think this solution is a fair one. Nothing in this world is free, its just built on other peoples money.
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Who said 'free'? In general, RGI (Rent Geared to Income) units are priced at 30% of gross income, the minimum income, presumably, is social assistance at $733 per month, so rent, in that case would be $244 per month.

Ultra low yes, but compared with zero dollars for a shelter bed, that is far more expensive.

Logic dictates that an RGI unit is the better choice for both the recipient and the taxpayer.

Equally, I would argue, social assistance is far too low and far too punitive to anyone who tries to get a job ($200 per month exempt from penalty, after that you lose 50% of what you earn working from your benefits cheque.)

Which means, it literally does not pay to work.

I have a real world example, not from the perspective of a beneficiary, but from the business that wanted to hire her.

She could cut hair and a salon gave her a chance to prove it, and work one day a week.

Even at that meagre level, between taxes, clawbacks and a rent increase she was at risk of being worse off for working than not.

But she was willing to do it...............but then the salon insisted she work two days per week, that would have left her homeless.......with no support............so she quit instead.

This is the world of lets not be too nice.....it ends up costing everyone more.
 
Northern Light said:
Who said 'free'? In general, RGI (Rent Geared to Income) units are priced at 30% of gross income, the minimum income, presumably, is social assistance at $733 per month, so rent, in that case would be $244 per month.

Ultra low yes, but compared with zero dollars for a shelter bed, that is far more expensive.

Logic dictates that an RGI unit is the better choice for both the recipient and the taxpayer.

Equally, I would argue, social assistance is far too low and far too punitive to anyone who tries to get a job ($200 per month exempt from penalty, after that you lose 50% of what you earn working from your benefits cheque.)

Which means, it literally does not pay to work.

I have a real world example, not from the perspective of a beneficiary, but from the business that wanted to hire her.

She could cut hair and a salon gave her a chance to prove it, and work one day a week.

Even at that meagre level, between taxes, clawbacks and a rent increase she was at risk of being worse off for working than not.

But she was willing to do it...............but then the salon insisted she work two days per week, that would have left her homeless.......with no support............so she quit instead.

This is the world of lets not be too nice.....it ends up costing everyone more.
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I disagree.. .these people we see all over cannot hold down a job... dont want a job... just want to do drugs. what income are you talking about exactly? Social assistance is not income. social assistance is free money for no work! this goes back to my original argument, they get free stuff. Everyone else gets to pay for it.
 
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pmacpherson68 said:
I disagree.. .these people we see all over cannot hold down a job... dont want a job... just want to do drugs. what income are you talking about exactly? Social assistance is not income. social assistance is free money for no work! this goes back to my original argument, they get free stuff. Everyone else gets to pay for it.
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We very much disagree. You are basing your opinions on your gut, not on evidence.

80% of all people on social assistance voluntarily exit the program over any 5-year period, roughly 12-20% in any given year.

Those are the facts, not a vibe.

Most people on Ontario Works desperately want a better life and are prepared to work for it, they just need a helping hand. That's what the evidence shows.
 
Northern Light said:
We very much disagree. You are basing your opinions on your gut, not on evidence.

80% of all people on social assistance voluntarily exit the program over any 5-year period, roughly 12-20% in any given year.

Those are the facts, not a vibe.

Most people on Ontario Works desperately want a better life and are prepared to work for it, they just need a helping hand. That's what the evidence shows.
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nope... im not talking about people who need a leg up, who are working or really trying to find work... i support helping those in need. but i dont support building essentially free housing for people with severe mental issues or major drug problems until they've been treated (ie. they have been institutionalized and forced to be treated, if they dont do so voluntarily).

It seems its the typical liberal talking point that we should just shower people with free stuff, like that stuff is not free. it costs money. fix the real problem. the homeless peoples' problems are not caused by homelessness... that is a symptom, not the root cause.
 
pmacpherson68 said:
nope... im not talking about people who need a leg up, who are working or really trying to find work... i support helping those in need. but i dont support building essentially free housing for people with severe mental issues or major drug problems until they've been treated (ie. they have been institutionalized and forced to be treated, if they dont do so voluntarily).

It seems its the typical liberal talking point that we should just shower people with free stuff, like that stuff is not free. it costs money. fix the real problem. the homeless peoples' problems are not caused by homelessness... that is a symptom, not the root cause.
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It is becoming quite clear that you are not interested in good faith arguments. I strongly suggest putting this to rest.
 
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