[reaperexpress]

Quite possible if the only plan is to slip the Northlander into sidings to let the freights slip by. That will limit its velocity.

But - if the desire is to have the freights move out of the way to keep the Northlander moving - especially if there is a Northlander running in each direction at the same time - you need sidings up to 3 miles long. That means grade separations as level crossings would be blocked for unacceptable lengths of time.

A little examination of Google Maps shows that there are very few stretches of that line where even a 10,000 foot siding can be built without tying up a level crossing.

Grade separations are good, and many will happen as the territory adds density - but don’t underestimate how this will add to the cost.

- Paul

That's why I said lengthen sidings. I mean lengthen them to 14,000 feet.

 

[micheal_can]

PS - Your draft schedule pretty much assumes that there is only one Northlander on the Bala Sub at one time. But the evening northbound will depart Toronto just as the second southbound day train hits Washago.

Putting even one 70mph passenger train on 70 miles of track (Setter to Washago) effectively halts freight activity for an hour. Put two opposing 70 mph trains on the territory at once effectively means the RTC has to place every freight in a siding, plus leaving one siding open as the meeting point for the two passengers. It’s a lot of sidings needed and a challenge for the RTC.

It all sounds so easy, until you try it. I would bet CN has a fit if a three train each way daily schedule is proposed. At the least, it’s a lot of sidings needed and don’t forget those grade separations. It worked in the past because freights were much shorter and fit into the many sidings. These days, there are fewer sidings and the trains don’t fit anymore.

And the North Bay-Toronto freight needs a place to fit into the plan without delaying Northlanders..

- Paul

If the province ever wanted to add much more than the one Northlander running on the existing future schedule, it may be more prudent to work with CN to get the line double tracked. The good thing is, there is no tying up crossings. The bad thing is... who will pay for it.

 

[crs1026]

That's why I said lengthen sidings. I mean lengthen them to 14,000 feet.

I understand ….. my point is, try to find 14,000 linear feet segments that don’t have a road crossing in them. Every siding needs at least one grade separation. Even with well timed meets, a 12,000 foot train will block that crossing for an unacceptable period of time.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Quite possible if the only plan is to slip the Northlander into sidings to let the freights slip by. That will limit its velocity.

But - if the desire is to have the freights move out of the way to keep the Northlander moving - especially if there is a Northlander running in each direction at the same time - you need sidings up to 3 miles long. That means grade separations as level crossings would be blocked for unacceptable lengths of time.

A little examination of Google Maps shows that there are very few stretches of that line where even a 10,000 foot siding can be built without tying up a level crossing.

Grade separations are good, and many will happen as the territory adds density - but don’t underestimate how this will add to the cost.

- Paul

Remember that there are two projects underway already to do this - one is a "new" Zephyr siding which will be much longer, and the other will be a section of triple track between Langstaff and Richmond Hill.

Dan

 

[leopetr]

14000 feet is 4.3km. Concession roads are about 2.1km apart from each other

 

[crs1026]

Remember that there are two projects underway already to do this - one is a "new" Zephyr siding which will be much longer, and the other will be a section of triple track between Langstaff and Richmond Hill.

Dan

True - the Langstaff-Richmond Hill tracking is likely overdue to improve freight flow given the frequent staging of freights on the York Sub during crew changes and to hold northward trains awaiting a southward arrival. I wonder if the Zephyr sidin will reduce the use of Brechin East, which has always been problemmatic account a grade crossing in the middle. That is probably enough to expedite the one Northlander a day. I was commenting more on the prospect of @reaperexpress 's proposed three train a day design. Even the Zephyr and Brechin East sidings might not be enough under that scenario, and there isn't a lot of room for more unless there are grade separations.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

I understand ….. my point is, try to find 14,000 linear feet segments that don’t have a road crossing in them. Every siding needs at least one grade separation. Even with well timed meets, a 12,000 foot train will block that crossing for an unacceptable period of time.

Ah yes, gotcha. Sorry. Yes when a freight train stops it will block some crossings.

It doesn't seem to be mandatory to grade-separate all crossings within a long siding, given that the existing long sidings are not grade separated. Certainly we wouldn't want a freight train to be sitting in the middle of a town cutting it in half for extended periods, and blocking major roads is also a recipe for conflict too. But occasionally obstructing lightly-used rural roads doesn't seem to be a dealbreaker for CN.

The existing Brechin East siding, which is currently the only siding between Bloomington and Washago that can fit long transcontinental freights, includes a level crossing at Ramora Road 47, which is a fairly significant connection between Brechin and Lagoon City. A new siding further south can be located in a spot where it obstructs much less significant level crossings.

It's also worth noting that grade separation is not the only solution to this problem. Building substantial lengths of double track allows the yielding train to (slowly) continue moving while it's waiting for the oncoming train, which reduces the impact on level crossings.

For example, it would take 12 km of additional double track (in addition to the current construction) to link the Zephyr and Pefferlaw sidings together into one 18km segment of double track. Of course 12km of double track is not cheap, but it does provide significant railway operations advantages that would not be provided by a rural road grade separation. The optimal solution for capacity expansion may include some combination of lengthening sidings, road closures, conversion of level crossings to pedestrian/cycling grade separations and yes, full roadway grade separations, depending on impacts, benefits and costs.

14000 feet is 4.3km. Concession roads are about 2.1km apart from each other

Yep, but there are still some concession roads that are quite lightly used or even non-existant.

Take for example the 5.7 km gap between the Old Shiloh Road and Smith Boulevard level crossings:

 

[crs1026]

For a time, CN had "utility" people on call who would respond when a train had to take siding at Brechin East, to uncouple the train at the crossing so it remained clear, and recouple the train when it was ready to proceed. I don't know if that practice is still in place. A simpler approach is for trains to simply hold back and creep until both trains in a meet are close to the siding. That helps the crossing stay clear, but it doesn't suit a passenger train operation where one doesn't want the passenger train to take a delay either by holding back or by waiting in the siding. Longer trains mean there is much less opportunity for a RTC to simply move the meet to the next siding to improve the punctuality - the next siding may not be long enough.

The Cedarbrae location is where the "new" Zephyr siding is being built. It's about the last long stretch of uncrossed right of way on that line.

One has to be careful about assuming that lesser crossings can be blocked for longer periods. They may represent emergency access to some properties, or they may actually transsect a business or agricultural process. The CROR standard of 5 minutes applies regardless of vehicular volume. Even private crossings may have restrictions in crossing agreements. And even if it happens, it's a huge relationship destroyer for the locals. (This is the problem that Alto is facing as well.)

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

14000 feet is 4.3km. Concession roads are about 2.1km apart from each other

Looking at the various roads that cross near existing sidings, are there any that would be worth grade separating?

 

[Sauga89]

The optimal solution for capacity expansion may include some combination of lengthening sidings, road closures, conversion of level crossings to pedestrian/cycling grade separations and yes, full roadway grade separations, depending on impacts, benefits and costs.

This may be out on a limb, but does the purchase of track north of Washago make it worthwhile to consider rebuilding the old route between Washago and Brechin via Longford Mills and Atherley?

Perhaps it would it be cheaper than paying CN to install multiple sidings with grade separations. (I know it would not be cheap, but maybe just cheaper than the grade separations?).

I think the Cedarbrae siding would then be halfway between the double track at Bloomington GO and the start of government track at Brechin, for passing trains.

Also, you could add together the money saved from trackage fees paid to CN for freight coming to and from North Bay on that 30 km stretch, the passenger revenue/economic activity from stops near Orillia and at Casino Rama, and the operational benefits of VIA and the Northlander trains controlling the signalling on that stretch.

 

[micheal_can]

This may be out on a limb, but does the purchase of track north of Washago make it worthwhile to consider rebuilding the old route between Washago and Brechin via Longford Mills and Atherley?

Perhaps it would it be cheaper than paying CN to install multiple sidings with grade separations. (I know it would not be cheap, but maybe just cheaper than the grade separations?).

View attachment 726410

I think the Cedarbrae siding would then be halfway between the double track at Bloomington GO and the start of government track at Brechin, for passing trains.

Also, you could add together the money saved from trackage fees paid to CN for freight coming to and from North Bay on that 30 km stretch, the passenger revenue/economic activity from stops near Orillia and at Casino Rama, and the operational benefits of VIA and the Northlander trains controlling the signalling on that stretch.

Currently Casino Rama sits on the old ROW.

So, you solved the problem to Brechin, but what about between there south to where it is double track?

 

[lenaitch]

This may be out on a limb, but does the purchase of track north of Washago make it worthwhile to consider rebuilding the old route between Washago and Brechin via Longford Mills and Atherley?

Longford Mills to Atherley is decently clear except that it transects a FNT, which complicates things and there is a casino in the way. Atherley to Bechin has been abandoned so long that it would have to be considered a greenfield acquisition and build. I'm not sure that would solve anything, regardless of the number of trains involved.

 

[Sauga89]

Atherley to Bechin has been abandoned so long that it would have to be considered a greenfield acquisition and build.

A good chunk of that old route though seems to be forest and bog. It might not be that costly to acquire. I measure the section from Atherley to Brechin at 17 km (15 km if you cut the corner a bit on the Brechin end). Of that 15 km, from looking at a satellite image, I'd say only 4 km or so is being used for agriculture, 9 km is forested, and a couple kilometres seem to be storage or scrapyards of some kind.

There might arguably be better places to spend money, but the recent Newmarket subdivision purchase suggests the government is in a spending mood. If Vic Fedeli tomorrow ordered the Northlander frequency improved and damn the torpedoes, that 15 km seems to me like it might be cheaper than a grade separation.

there is a casino in the way

Technically, there is a casino parking lot in the way, and a bit of roofed walkway. But maybe you could divert a bit to the east. I'd imagine the First Nation might be happy to have a train stop.

 

[lenaitch]

A good chunk of that old route though seems to be forest and bog. It might not be that costly to acquire. I measure the section from Atherley to Brechin at 17 km (15 km if you cut the corner a bit on the Brechin end). Of that 15 km, from looking at a satellite image, I'd say only 4 km or so is being used for agriculture, 9 km is forested, and a couple kilometres seem to be storage or scrapyards of some kind.

There might arguably be better places to spend money, but the recent Newmarket subdivision purchase suggests the government is in a spending mood. If Vic Fedeli tomorrow ordered the Northlander frequency improved and damn the torpedoes, that 15 km seems to me like it might be cheaper than a grade separation.


Technically, there is a casino parking lot in the way, and a bit of roofed walkway. But maybe you could divert a bit to the east. I'd imagine the First Nation might be happy to have a train stop.

View attachment 726467

Ok, I'll play along. They, whoever 'they' is, could do a lot of things, but what would all of this expenditure gain?

I didn't look at the land use as closely but assume most of it is now owned by someone; its been abandoned since the 1930s.
The Rama Chief and Council might think it's a good idea but anything involving a FNT becomes a tripartite land claim issue. Ask the MTO how quickly those go for highway construction.
Construction of about 20 Euclidian miles of virgin track, plus two additional entry/exit connections to CN CTC, all for a small handful of trains to avoid about 16.7 rail miles of existing CN track?

 

[Sauga89]

all for a small handful of trains to avoid about 16.7 rail miles of existing CN track

Much of the last few pages of discussion have been about what improvements CN might demand to allow additional frequencies. So if CN were to demand, say, 8 km of new sidings, and a grade separation, that would equally be for the same few trains a day. The question I posed is, would the province in that scenario be better off building 30 km of its own track, with no grade separations, and which would bring it additional revenue?

They, whoever 'they' is

The government of Ontario.

(EDIT: Also, I don't want to get into the weeds, but I suspect having the First Nation's support would smooth over a lot of issues.)