[TDE]

In no way is the 34 better than Line 5. Maybe in scarborough, but in the centre of the city the bus will get held up at every major intersection especially avenue and approaching Allen either way. I've taken this bus route for 10 years and Line 5 is leagues better.

Never said better. Just easier to access if the bus is within a reasonable distance away.

Eglinton and Allen... eastbound traffic is still not great, but better than before. Westbound though, I have seen more noticeable improvements, all through the week, day and night. I can travel from Bathurst to Cedarvale in about 2-6 minutes (more or less) consistently. Compared to roughly 6-15+ minutes sometimes. I took the 34 in the morning and evening yesterday, and got to Cedarvale around 3 & 4.5 minutes from Bathurst. The turning restrictions the City implemented last year did help somewhat.

All that said, I'll still be riding both; depends on my itinerary or circumstances. And yes, the LRT is obviously much faster when you're onboard and going a ways out. I'll save everyone stories I've experienced even from day one onward with both.


On a different note:

Took a train on Tuesday or Wednesday morning, arrived at Cedarvale, and the train failed to stop properly on its markers and allow the operator to open the doors. We were delayed roughly five minutes while he tried to creep up to the markers few times to get the system to release door control. And I can hear the TCMS beeping every time (I assume) he pressed the doors open button.

Speaking of which, this happened at Mount Pleasant (assumed today)...

 

[nfitz]

The Golden Mile area is a huge shopping strip stretching from Victoria Park (No-Frills) to east of Warden. It's possible the dense spacing of stops is deliberate, to support shops and shoppers.

Pretty much.If we took out just Hakimi and Ionview and shifted the Pharamacy station just a bit east, we wouldn't be having this discussion, except with the subway obsessives. So only two extra stations really.

Well, maybe Agha Khan.

 

[urbanclient]

Pretty much.If we took out just Hakimi and Ionview and shifted the Pharamacy station just a bit east, we wouldn't be having this discussion, except with the subway obsessives. So only two extra stations really.

Is this really any different from Yonge subway downtown?

The shops are dense(?) but the population is not dense enough to warrant that stop spacing.

And by dense(?), we mean strip malls, big box stores, restaurants and massive car-centric parking lots? Not at all like Line 1 downtown...

I guess it's dense compared to... single family detached housing?

This is also why rapid transit (especially of the tunneled variety) should be emphasizing speed (for more medium to long distance trips) rather than frequent stop spacing which are tailored more for short distance trips.

I second this. At one point Line 5 Eglinton was supposed to replace Eglinton buses in the east, obviously they backed down from that idea. Hence, Line 5 Eglinton is a half-measure in this regard.

Why is it ok for Line 6 to replace buses over 10.3 km, at ~600 m stop spacing, but not okay for Line 5 to replace buses over 6.3 km with 620 m stop spacing?

There is nothing wrong with running a parallel bus for local service on a rapid transit corridor. However, even if Line 5 never wasted a second at red lights, it still wouldn't be rapid enough on the surface section (20-22 km/h). A big part of that problem is stop spacing.

For making transit rapid, grade separation and rolling stock choice are often second order to stop spacing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TTC/comments/1saqb4f/line_5s_speed_has_less_to_do_with_technology

 

[urbanclient]

Based on the views of the driver's interface, it appears that an increase in the speed to 80 km/h in the tunnels from 60 km/h will also increase the part where trains slow down when approaching stations from 35 km/h to 55 km/h. So that can save some additional time as well.

0-80 took around 38-39 seconds (video starts when train is rolling already). 0-60 km/h took about 21-22 seconds. You can figure out acceleration and distance travelled to reach top speed from this information alone.

You can see in this video that the platform speed limit (speed that train must slow down to before reaching platform) was actually 30 km/h, not 35 km/h.

Point is, top speed increasing from 60 to 80, will not save much time. Compared to a theoretical best-case run capped at 60 km/h, an 80 km/h top speed would save about 30 seconds from Mt. Dennis to Kennedy.

(Currently, Line 5 does not even reach 60 km/h on many segments where it could, so current operations are not optimized for speed.)

Credit to whoever made this:

 

[McGillicuddy]

The Golden Mile area is a huge shopping strip stretching from Victoria Park (No-Frills) to east of Warden. It's possible the dense spacing of stops is deliberate, to support shops and shoppers. Is this really any different from Yonge subway downtown? Having Line 5 above ground in this area is to the malls' advantage, because there is less time getting on and off the train, compared to those deep stations. Different rtypes of routes for different neighbourhoods. I know not everyone will agree.

One big difference here: if you step off the train at Queen, you can potentially be inside the Eaton Centre in about 30 seconds.

If you step off the train at Golden Mile, you can walk directly at your shop of choice and, ten minutes later, still find yourself walking across its parking lot. (Walk to the far end of the platform, cross the street twice, walk past that cosmetic school...)

 

[nfitz]

The shops are dense(?) but the population is not dense enough to warrant that stop spacing.

And by dense(?), we mean strip malls, big box stores, restaurants and massive car-centric parking lots? Not at all like Line 1 downtown...

That's today. It's not designed for today. Today is big parking lots near the street, and stores a long walk in. But in 2040?

Look what's happened at Brentcliffe and Eglinton

2018

2024

And that new building already under construction - looking southeast from Pharmacy station

2013

Future

 

[urbanclient]

That's today. It's not designed for today. Today is big parking lots near the street, and stores a long walk in. But in 2040?

Look what's happened at Brentcliffe and Eglinton

2018
View attachment 726528
2024
View attachment 726529


And that new building already under construction - looking southeast from Pharmacy station

2013
View attachment 726530

Future
View attachment 726531

I totally agree with what you're saying. And I've advocated for building transit before densification. E.g. North York Centre. I also used densification in the east as an argument that Line 5 would reach overcapacity earlier than predicted.

My point of emphasis, is it's "Not at all like Line 1 downtown..."

It's not like Line 1, nor is it like downtown.

Downtown has way more jobs. In the future, I don't see Eglinton east getting close to even Scarborough Centre job numbers. Even if there is housing densification. Setting aside visiting neighbours and shopping, Brentcliffe and Golden Mile won't be destinations the way all of Downtown is. That means rail transit serves to bring people elsewhere.

So the benefits of tighter stop spacing are low. And @nfitz is right, getting rid of Hakimi, Ionview, and Aga Khan would solve the problem. Without those 3, stop spacing would be ~935 metres, even wider than the tunnelled western side (~850 metres).

Almost had this discussion about an Ontario Line North extension. Even if you stuff the Don Mills Rd West/East peanut full of high-rises, it would still be surrounded by a sea of low density housing and few jobs. Stop spacing in the relative suburbs should be wide. Just because you line Eglinton Ave with high density does not automatically make the wider area dense enough to support <=600 metre spacing, as if it's downtown. 4 stops from Seneca to Fairview Mall would be ridiculous.

The assumption is this is supposed to be rapid transit, not local transit.

It's possible the dense spacing of stops is deliberate, to support shops and shoppers.

Deliberately short-sighted? The argument for making shopping more convenient doesn't make sense within a wider context.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/89a7-CityPlanning-Toronto-Employment-Survey-Bulletin-2025.pdf

-------------------------------------

A 6-car Line 1 train has nearly double the effective capacity of a 3-car Line 5 train (especially if minus the space wasted for couplers and ends of cars facing each other).

Line 1 runs more frequently. ATC theoretically allows 1'55", but it currently runs slightly better than 2'30" with gap trains.

It appears difficult, if not impossible to run Line 5 at such short headways (2.5 minutes or less), unless there is absolute signal priority/preemption.

From 2022: "According to a TTC staff report that went to the agency’s board on April 14, the TTC has been preparing to open the LRT at what the P3 agreement calls Service Level 1, which would see trains run as often as every 5 minutes at the busiest times. But the TTC is now in discussion with Metrolinx about starting at Level 6, under which trains would run as often as every 3 minutes and 10 seconds. Metrolinx proposed the higher service levels, which would be a major change — the LRT wasn’t expected to reach Level 6 for another 15 years. [2037]"

How often should the Eglinton LRT run? TTC, Metrolinx disagree

Difference over LRT service levels proves an early test of province and city’s ability to get along.

web.archive.org

So if 3'10" was the original plan for 2037, how much lower could the headways get?

Again, why is it ok for Line 6 to replace buses over 10.3 km, at ~600 m stop spacing, but not okay for Line 5 to replace buses over 6.3 km with 620 m stop spacing? If they're not replacing buses, then make some stops request only.

 

[Natika33]

I totally agree with what you're saying. And I've advocated for building transit before densification. E.g. North York Centre. I also used densification in the east as an argument that Line 5 would reach overcapacity earlier than predicted.

My point of emphasis, is it's "Not at all like Line 1 downtown..."

It's not like Line 1, nor is it like downtown.

Downtown has way more jobs. In the future, I don't see Eglinton east getting close to even Scarborough Centre job numbers. Even if there is housing densification. Setting aside visiting neighbours and shopping, Brentcliffe and Golden Mile won't be destinations the way all of Downtown is. That means rail transit serves to bring people elsewhere.

So the benefits of tighter stop spacing are low. And @nfitz is right, getting rid of Hakimi, Ionview, and Aga Khan would solve the problem. Without those 3, stop spacing would be ~935 metres, even wider than the tunnelled western side (~850 metres).

Almost had this discussion about an Ontario Line North extension. Even if you stuff the Don Mills Rd West/East peanut full of high-rises, it would still be surrounded by a sea of low density housing and few jobs. Stop spacing in the relative suburbs should be wide. Just because you line Eglinton Ave with high density does not automatically make the wider area dense enough to support <=600 metre spacing, as if it's downtown. 4 stops from Seneca to Fairview Mall would be ridiculous.

The assumption is this is supposed to be rapid transit, not local transit.


Deliberately short-sighted? The argument for making shopping more convenient doesn't make sense within a wider context.

View attachment 726571
View attachment 726548

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/89a7-CityPlanning-Toronto-Employment-Survey-Bulletin-2025.pdf

-------------------------------------

A 6-car Line 1 train has nearly double the effective capacity of a 3-car Line 5 train (especially if minus the space wasted for couplers and ends of cars facing each other).

Line 1 runs more frequently. ATC theoretically allows 1'55", but it currently runs slightly better than 2'30" with gap trains.
View attachment 726566

It appears difficult, if not impossible to run Line 5 at such short headways (2.5 minutes or less), unless there is absolute signal priority/preemption.

From 2022: "According to a TTC staff report that went to the agency’s board on April 14, the TTC has been preparing to open the LRT at what the P3 agreement calls Service Level 1, which would see trains run as often as every 5 minutes at the busiest times. But the TTC is now in discussion with Metrolinx about starting at Level 6, under which trains would run as often as every 3 minutes and 10 seconds. Metrolinx proposed the higher service levels, which would be a major change — the LRT wasn’t expected to reach Level 6 for another 15 years. [2037]"

How often should the Eglinton LRT run? TTC, Metrolinx disagree

Difference over LRT service levels proves an early test of province and city’s ability to get along.

web.archive.org

So if 3'10" was the original plan for 2037, how much lower could the headways get?

Again, why is it ok for Line 6 to replace buses over 10.3 km, at ~600 m stop spacing, but not okay for Line 5 to replace buses over 6.3 km with 620 m stop spacing? If they're not replacing buses, then make some stops request only.

I'd be tempted to suggest making some stops "request only" in order to test how often they're actually requested, but with some stops being so close, would we run the risk that people would be hitting the "please stop" button when it might already be challenging to stop?

 

[McGillicuddy]

I'd be tempted to suggest making some stops "request only" in order to test how often they're actually requested, but with some stops being so close, would we run the risk that people would be hitting the "please stop" button when it might already be challenging to stop?

We would also be further fracturing the passenger experience. (You must ALWAYS request stops on THESE services UNLESS the following criteria are met. You must pay your fare BEFORE boarding, unless you pay it UPON boarding, unless you board the service HERE, HERE or HERE...)

 

[urbanclient]

I'd be tempted to suggest making some stops "request only" in order to test how often they're actually requested, but with some stops being so close, would we run the risk that people would be hitting the "please stop" button when it might already be challenging to stop?

Given the political environment and nanny state culture, I don't think request stops would happen. But ideally they would when the end of one platform is less than 300 metres from the midpoint of the other.

 

[Natika33]

We would also be further fracturing the passenger experience. (You must ALWAYS request stops on THESE services UNLESS the following criteria are met. You must pay your fare BEFORE boarding, unless you pay it UPON boarding, unless you board the service HERE, HERE or HERE...)

Sorry, I should have said "all stops from Don Valley to Kennedy" since it's effectively a streetcar on that stretch, but regardless, I recognize it's unrealistic.

 

[A 6264]

Ooh, I just remembered, since today is the first day of full service past 11 PM... There was supposed to be a delayed opening ceremony when that happens. They've still got those commemorative coins to distribute. Maybe they've forgotten? I guess Metrolinx will have to sell them on Ebay...

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Ooh, I just remembered, since today is the first day of full service past 11 PM... There was supposed to be a delayed opening ceremony when that happens. They've still got those commemorative coins to distribute. Maybe they've forgotten? I guess Metrolinx will have to sell them on Ebay...

I heard the ceremony would happen in May but I do hope it still happens.

 

[81-717]

I heard the ceremony would happen in May but I do hope it still happens.

Hopefully it won't be this year's DOTO.

 

[Archii]

Caught my trains running at 80 today I think, and they accelerated fully without pause when leaving all underground stations, which felt new.

Edit: phone speedometer showed 80 once connection was reestablished leaving Keelesdale westbound and on return trip leaving Mt Dennis (I decided to check since it felt much faster in the tunnels)