[A.Malik.77]

reminder due to MX incompetence this will be a completely separate line from the crosstown. Part of the reason why the name change makes sense. but still maybe we find a better vehicle to use for this.
Maybe something like Seattles light rail vehicles.

I have heard Alstom provides a medium capacity train system that is quite suitable to elevated, automated operations. It can handle the curves this route is proposing, especially through UTSC. It can easily handle grade changes as well. It can even run 1 or 2 car trains for lower capacity. The footprint is quite small, as the trains and structures can be smaller than a subway. I think Vancouver runs it elevated pretty effectively in suburban areas similar to Scarborough. Maybe Scarborough can try this innovative medium-capacity rail system?

 

[NoahB]

I have heard Alstom provides a medium capacity train system that is quite suitable to elevated, automated operations. It can handle the curves this route is proposing, especially through UTSC. It can easily handle grade changes as well. It can even run 1 or 2 car trains for lower capacity. The footprint is quite small, as the trains and structures can be smaller than a subway. I think Vancouver runs it elevated pretty effectively in suburban areas similar to Scarborough. Maybe Scarborough can try this innovative medium-capacity rail system?

I think the Canada Line there is a good one to bring over with its small stations. For example, the Capstan Station cost only 62 million to build in 2021.

 

[nfitz]

I think the Canada Line there is a good one to bring over with its small stations. For example, the Capstan Station cost only 62 million to build in 2021.

Don't you find the Canada line very crowded though with it's 40-metre long Rotem trains - that's shorter than a single Finch West car.

Though perhaps that works better for somewhere remote like Scarborough. The Canada line runs right into downtown. Personally I prefer the more frequent 85-metre Alstom trains that the other lines use.

Only $62 million for Capstan - a 40-metre long elevated station (extendable to 50 metres) in 2021? Only 4 years after the new Line 1 stations opened - which have 150-metre platforms that are very deep and often multiple entrances, which were about $120 million each?

That seems very expensive to me! It isn't even enclosed, unlike the elevated Ontario Line stations. It's hard to see - is there really no wing walls to stop the driving rain?

 

[Amare]

I think the Canada Line there is a good one to bring over with its small stations. For example, the Capstan Station cost only 62 million to build in 2021.

Let's create a line with constrained capacity to cheap out and save on costs, while severely screwing with the ability to accommodate any kind of future growth.

That doesn't sound like a wise idea to me at all.

 

[Thaboss]

To the extent that the Mayor is serious about adding grade separations, the full project here would be close to Crosstown budget levels........(start at 12B). (full separation could be 20B)

20B!?.. Yikes... no chance for that here i imagine.

 

[duty free]

I have a great deal of behind the scenes info.............but not all of it............and not always in real time...

With that proviso, I am unaware, at this time of any senior government funds coming to this project any time soon.

There are two major funding commitments likely in the next few months............( * grain of salt, I thought the WELRT commitment would be public in 2023).

To the extent that the Mayor is serious about adding grade separations, the full project here would be close to Crosstown budget levels........(start at 12B). (full separation could be 20B)

While possible, its unlikely anything that large has been moving under my radar. So I'll write it off as pre-election posturing for the Scarborough vote for now.

I think there is a desire to deliver something in this corridor, I remain of the view its more likely to be scaled down (BRT) and probably be less lengthy, than built as a partial/full separation route.

But governments surprise me now and again......so you never know.

Are those just estimated capital expenses or do they bizarrely include 30 years of operational expenses like the OL ? Make it make sense.

 

[Northern Light]

Are those just estimated capital expenses or do they bizarrely include 30 years of operational expenses like the OL ? Make it make sense.

The current running capital estimate at an early design stage is 4.94B.

However, that's if the project started tomorrow, more or less, which it won't.

Its also with no tunnelling other than exiting Kennedy Station.

The overall length (including Malvern) is ~18.6km (most of the route is known and fixed, but there are still some up in the air bits).

Current cost per km for the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension which would likely be a good comparitor with partial tunnel/full separation is 4.7B over 9km. Or over 500m per km.

But my understanding is that it running over budget (TBD)

That's for a line under construction now, with no forward inflation.

The streetscaping components also likely more an issue here based on prelininary design, plus a complex interchange at Kennedy........and a SMF that is not yet a settled issue either, nor is its interchange with Line 4.

I might be a bit excessive in my estimate.......the exact numbers would depend on contract and finance model. But after everything that's gone wrong with Finch and Hurontario and the Crosstown, I'd expect a bump not a decline.

Just to add one last comparitor, the WELRT, mostly on the surfact is estimated at 3B with a 3.8km running distance...which is 750M per km. That price per km would get you 14B for a budget.

 

[NoahB]

Let's create a line with constrained capacity to cheap out and save on costs, while severely screwing with the ability to accommodate any kind of future growth.

That doesn't sound like a wise idea to me at all.

You say that, but the Canada Line has the same ultimate capacity as the Eglinton Crosstown. (15k) And the Eglinton East LRT/Rapid Transit route only serves Scarborough.


And the old (current) plan for the Eglinton East LRT is to have 50-meter platforms. I don't think capacity was a worry for that tram line.

This is not the Relief Line.

 

[NoahB]

Don't you find the Canada line very crowded though with it's 40-metre long Rotem trains - that's shorter than a single Finch West car.

I have not been to Vancouver. But have ridden people movers of similar size. Yeah. They do feel small. Longer and bigger are better. But expected ridership only justifies frequent small trains. No point in having empty large trains for 50 years.

Only $62 million for Capstan - a 40-metre long elevated station (extendable to 50 metres) in 2021? Only 4 years after the new Line 1 stations opened - which have 150-metre platforms that are very deep and often multiple entrances, which were about $120 million each?

That seems very expensive to me! It isn't even enclosed, unlike the elevated Ontario Line stations.

Correction: Capstan Station opened at 52m platform length. It would not need to be expanded to the 50m standard like the older stations.

Unfortunately, the 120 million stations you are referring to cost a lot more after pandemic-era inflation. Those cost "$445 million to $470 million" according to the 2023 city report on Cummer Station.

 

[crs1026]

One would think that after TYSSE and now the Crosstown/Line 6 experiences - not to mention a thousand pages of UT debate - the City and Province would have an informed, insightful and consensual view of the best way to deliver higher order transit in this city.

I have hoped that the recent "discovery" of TPS (maybe soon, the City will discover fire, and then the wheel /s) marked a turning point in awareness of how surface transit might work well. But the broader experience seems to be scaring the political level away from LRT, not for good reason or past data but "just because".

I hope this new examination will contrast cut and cover, tbm boring, and elevated costs and impact with what is already in the can.

I don't have a view on this line pro or con, but I would hope that any rethinking is not just a rehash of all those favourite technologies. If this is just sticker shock looking for a reason to put off a decision.......

- Paul

 

[Bojaxs]

Would rather see Line 4 extended to Morningside, and Line 5 extended to the Eglinton GO station (preferably elevated, since it would have to travel over the Line 2 Scarborough extension).

Then you could just run an express bus along Kingston Rd & Morningside Ave between both ends of the line. There's already bus lanes along Kingston and Morningside.

 

[duty free]

The current running capital estimate at an early design stage is 4.94B.

However, that's if the project started tomorrow, more or less, which it won't.

Its also with no tunnelling other than exiting Kennedy Station.

The overall length (including Malvern) is ~18.6km (most of the route is known and fixed, but there are still some up in the air bits).

Current cost per km for the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension which would likely be a good comparitor with partial tunnel/full separation is 4.7B over 9km. Or over 500m per km.

But my understanding is that it running over budget (TBD)

That's for a line under construction now, with no forward inflation.

The streetscaping components also likely more an issue here based on prelininary design, plus a complex interchange at Kennedy........and a SMF that is not yet a settled issue either, nor is its interchange with Line 4.

I might be a bit excessive in my estimate.......the exact numbers would depend on contract and finance model. But after everything that's gone wrong with Finch and Hurontario and the Crosstown, I'd expect a bump not a decline.

Just to add one last comparitor, the WELRT, mostly on the surfact is estimated at 3B with a 3.8km running distance...which is 750M per km. That price per km would get you 14B for a budget.

If this were fully grade separated/elevated then maybe your estimate will be close to accurate. I don’t know, it’s difficult to gauge the cost of anything anymore so who knows.

 

[christiesplits]

Let's say hypothetically there was budget to bury half the Eglinton East LRT line, while keeping the other half at grade. What section would it make most sense to bury?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Looking at the map, I would at least tunnel where the trains would require turns.

Kennedy Station, Eglinton East & Kingston, Kingston & Morningside, Morningside & Ellesmere, UTSC & Ellesmere, Sheppard East & Morningside, Sheppard East & Neilson, Malvern Town Centre, and McCowan & Sheppard.

 

[JSF-1]

Let's say hypothetically there was budget to bury half the Eglinton East LRT line, while keeping the other half at grade. What section would it make most sense to bury?

Realistically speaking the stop at the stop at Lawrence and then the short stretch along Morningside between Kingston Road and the Highland Creek Ravine, with the line the coming to the surface to cross the ravine on a dedicated bridge. The underground section on the Crosstown exists because Eglinton is to narrow for a surface ROW between Brentcliffe and Weston Road. Eglinton Ave East and Kingston Road by comparison are wide enough to support a surface ROW. The only choke point on the EELRT is Morningside Avenue between Kingston Road and Ellesmere which is only 24m wide with no room for widening. This tunnel would no doubt need to be cut-and-cover since I can't see there being any value in using a deep bore for a 1km tunnel that has to come to the surface quickly enough to cross the ravine. I could see the southern portal being south of Lawrence Avenue while the northern portal to the bridge could be on the west side of Morningside since the city would have an easier time taking some land from West Hill CI then the houses across the street; although this admitadly makes the alignment to UTSC a bit harder since the route would need to make a right turn across Morningside at Ellemsere while a bridge on the east side of the street avoids this entirely.