[lenaitch]

The province's media relations department botched the announcement of the ticket fares. The ONR's website has a much better explanation. If you book your tickets 96 hours in advance, a ticket from North Bay to Toronto can be as cheap as 85$ each way. Not bad if you ask me, considering the price of gas, wear and tear on your vehicle, traffic, parking and accommodations of you stayed overnight in Toronto. Not to mention the ability not to have to focus on the road for hours on end.

I heard that as well. It goes back to my earlier comments about 'the Centre's' need for message control. Quite frankly, I doubt the Premier or minister's really care that much about the minutia of the fares but the minions around them lose their minds over things like this.

 

[Bojaxs]

I hope that this train is a success, that the economy class is kept affordable, and that they do add a business class as well as eventually a sleeper option, each with less of a subsidy than the economy class.

Anyway, at least one person has penned an opinion piece calling to extend it westward along the Great Lakes as far as Kenora!
"Doug Ford’s hype over this renewed rail line is well earned. But it could be the beginning of something even better"

Doug Ford’s hype over this renewed rail line is well earned. But it could be the beginning of something even better

There are little-used railway tracks all over Northern Ontario. Why don’t they carry passenger traffic?

www.thestar.com

If Northlander is successful it could be the beginning of intercity rail in Ontario. It would make sense to eventually extend service to Sudbury.

As @JasonParis stated earlier, the success of Northlander could lead to a possible "Southlander" travelling to places like London, Sarnia, Windsor. Allow VIA to focus solely on the Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa triangle.

Union Station could become a transfer point between Northlander and Southlander trains.

EDIT: Perhaps if we can successfully negotiate with CN, we could even run an "Eastlander" service along the CN corridor between Toronto & Cornwall. Wishful thinking, I know.

 

[crs1026]

Anyway, at least one person has penned an opinion piece calling to extend it westward along the Great Lakes as far as Kenora!
"Doug Ford’s hype over this renewed rail line is well earned. But it could be the beginning of something even better"

Doug Ford’s hype over this renewed rail line is well earned. But it could be the beginning of something even better

There are little-used railway tracks all over Northern Ontario. Why don’t they carry passenger traffic?

www.thestar.com

The economics of the Northlander remain to be seen - but at least the ONR has some freight traffic to share/offset the fixed costs of the line. Extrapolating to Sudbury-SSM which barely generates freight revenue is a quantum difference. An Algomalander would have the entire fixed costs of a 180-mile line attributed to one daily passenger train. And I question the sense in running it to North Bay to connect, it would likely need to run directly south from Sudbury on one of the busier freight lines to compete with road. The capital costs of doing that would again be substantial, and no option of buying out CPKC or CN on that route.

It all sounds great until one asks the cost.

- Paul

 

[PinkLucy]

I lived in the North for many years and still follow local groups to keep up with the news. Lots of posts about the new Northlander. Anecdotally, people appear to be excited. They are ok with the pricing, although "that sounds good" may or may not translate into ticket sales.

 

[Mihairokov]

Am I naive to think that any lack of purchases for tickets to North Bay/Timmins will be overshadowed by the amount of tickets sold for Gravenhurst to cottagers heading to Muskoka all summer?

 

[crs1026]

Am I naive to think that any lack of purchases for tickets to North Bay/Timmins will be overshadowed by the amount of tickets sold for Gravenhurst to cottagers heading to Muskoka all summer?

Close - A more likely version would be cottagers (summer or year round) who need to come to the city for a day or two.
People need a car at the cottage, so I suspect first and last trip to/from the GTA will be by car. But once there is s vehicle at the cottage, why bring it into the city for a day and sit in traffic - and pay for parking ?
The scheduling does seem optimised to both the Northern and Cottsge Country markets.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

The economics of the Northlander remain to be seen - but at least the ONR has some freight traffic to share/offset the fixed costs of the line. Extrapolating to Sudbury-SSM which barely generates freight revenue is a quantum difference. An Algomalander would have the entire fixed costs of a 180-mile line attributed to one daily passenger train. And I question the sense in running it to North Bay to connect, it would likely need to run directly south from Sudbury on one of the busier freight lines to compete with road. The capital costs of doing that would again be substantial, and no option of buying out CPKC or CN on that route.

It all sounds great until one asks the cost.

- Paul

Not to mention the capital costs to bring the SSM to Sudbury stretch up to a reasonable standard. The advantage that Northlander has is much of it is on ONR's own property and, as you say, supported by freight revenue. Any service to the west would be a completely tenant situation unless the province was crazy enough to buy a ROW that has virtually no commercial value.

 

[micheal_can]

The economics of the Northlander remain to be seen - but at least the ONR has some freight traffic to share/offset the fixed costs of the line. Extrapolating to Sudbury-SSM which barely generates freight revenue is a quantum difference. An Algomalander would have the entire fixed costs of a 180-mile line attributed to one daily passenger train. And I question the sense in running it to North Bay to connect, it would likely need to run directly south from Sudbury on one of the busier freight lines to compete with road. The capital costs of doing that would again be substantial, and no option of buying out CPKC or CN on that route.

It all sounds great until one asks the cost.

- Paul

If you were to draw a line of the most populous areas of Northern ON, the first line to draw would be Highway 17 between SSM and Mattawa.That encompasses the largest, 3rd and 4th largest cities. It also does not have much gaps between smaller centres. And with the ONR already owning south to Washago, which is along 11 and already has population centres that may use it, there is no point of dealing with CPKC.

Not to mention the capital costs to bring the SSM to Sudbury stretch up to a reasonable standard. The advantage that Northlander has is much of it is on ONR's own property and, as you say, supported by freight revenue. Any service to the west would be a completely tenant situation unless the province was crazy enough to buy a ROW that has virtually no commercial value.

Part of me thinks that if the ONR is returning to its roots that they may see options to get customers that are not already there. Remember, owning the Newmarket sub was never part of the Northlander's business plan.so, if some sort of Algoma train is going to happen, it may mean that the OVR and HCR become part of the ONR. At which point, all bets are off. I do not expect to hear any major push from that till it is shown that the Northlander is a success.

 

[StreetcarRider]

Remember the Northlander was reinstated partly to support resource development, like new mines in the Ring of Fire. Such development would create new demand for north-south travel connections including for labour (the mines themselves would presumably be fly-in-fly-out). If the new demand materializes, it would presumably support the Northlander service but also might justify expansion.

Also, recall that Ontario and Alberta signed a memorandum of understanding about a new rail line directly to the Ring of Fire:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-smith-ontario-alberta-mous-1.7578915

 

[micheal_can]

Remember the Northlander was reinstated partly to support resource development, like new mines in the Ring of Fire. Such development would create new demand for north-south travel connections including for labour (the mines themselves would presumably be fly-in-fly-out). If the new demand materializes, it would presumably support the Northlander service but also might justify expansion.

Also, recall that Ontario and Alberta signed a memorandum of understanding about a new rail line directly to the Ring of Fire:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-smith-ontario-alberta-mous-1.7578915

A straight line south from the RoF would go to Longlac. That is on the CN mainline, not connected to the ONR lines.

 

[NorthernTracks]

Not to mention the capital costs to bring the SSM to Sudbury stretch up to a reasonable standard. The advantage that Northlander has is much of it is on ONR's own property and, as you say, supported by freight revenue. Any service to the west would be a completely tenant situation unless the province was crazy enough to buy a ROW that has virtually no commercial value.

I've said this before. Restoring any passenger service between SSM and Sudbury or SSM and Hearst is not going to be as straightforward as some people have made it out to be.

The HCRY came within a hair of being abandoned twice during the last 20 years. The ACR is currently mothballed North of the Agawa Canyon.

How things went down with the ACR in 2013-2015 wasn't right. The government didn't consult people who used the passenger service when they decided to pull the funding. The Railmark experiment as the replacement operator to CN was a failure.

Things are very different today than they were 10+ years ago. The line North of Sault-Ste-Marie is now split in two between Watco and CN. There is little opportunity to generate freight unless the Ring of Fire takes off (with a smelter in SSM) and/or the Marine port project becomes a reality.

The mill in Espanola is now shuttered, meaning fewer customers for Genesee & Wyoming.

It's going to be an incredible challenge convincing governments to green light this project.

 

[bpbpbpbp]

How much better are things for the Northlander if the Newmarket sub wasn’t abandoned between Barrie and past Orillia?

Assuming it all ends up becoming MX territory, that would mean provincially owned rail along essentially the entire route? Would this make the trip faster or logistically easier than having to play with CN on the Bala?

I think of the waterway bridge too which would pose some problems.

 

[micheal_can]

I've said this before. Restoring any passenger service between SSM and Sudbury or SSM and Hearst is not going to be as straightforward as some people have made it out to be.

The HCRY came within a hair of being abandoned twice during the last 20 years. The ACR is currently mothballed North of the Agawa Canyon.

How things went down with the ACR in 2013-2015 wasn't right. The government didn't consult people who used the passenger service when they decided to pull the funding. The Railmark experiment as the replacement operator to CN was a failure.

Things are very different today than they were 10+ years ago. The line North of Sault-Ste-Marie is now split in two between Watco and CN. There is little opportunity to generate freight unless the Ring of Fire takes off (with a smelter in SSM) and/or the Marine port project becomes a reality.

The mill in Espanola is now shuttered, meaning fewer customers for Genesee & Wyoming.

It's going to be an incredible challenge convincing governments to green light this project.

The mill is being converted into a biochar plant.

I hope no one thinks I think it is that straightforward. I know it is not. I also know that if it took ~15 years to get the Northlander back, getting anything more may take just as long even with the future Northlander's success. It could be done faster if it is worth the political capital. Having said that, if either HCR or OVR come to the province for money to do maintenance, there could be a bigger push to have the province buy it.The next provincial election is not expected till 2030. My guess is that may be the first we would hear of it from the PCs.

 

[micheal_can]

How much better are things for the Northlander if the Newmarket sub wasn’t abandoned between Barrie and past Orillia?

Assuming it all ends up becoming MX territory, that would mean provincially owned rail along essentially the entire route? Would this make the trip faster or logisticallye asier than having to play with CN on the Bala?

I think of the waterway bridge too which pose pose some problems.

If it were not abandoned, it would solve many issues. However, the chances of relaying tracks is ...well, highly unlikely.

 

[NorthernTracks]

How much better are things for the Northlander if the Newmarket sub wasn’t abandoned between Barrie and past Orillia?

Assuming it all ends up becoming MX territory, that would mean provincially owned rail along essentially the entire route? Would this make the trip faster or logisticallye asier than having to play with CN on the Bala?

I think of the waterway bridge too which pose pose some problems.

If only...