[Jaye101]

This project is interesting because it's not really just one line. It will function like a network the way they have it outlined.

Before any more steps are made the province must choose an alignment for Line 4. And provide a solution for the debacle they've orchestrated at Kennedy.

 

[nfitz]

But expected ridership only justifies frequent small trains. No point in having empty large trains for 50 years.

I don't believe the design timeframe was 50 years. They lose the franchise in 2044, so I'd guess the design timeframe was about 2040.

They've always operated with poorer crowding standards (more passengers) than TTC from what I've observed.

And the old (current) plan for the Eglinton East LRT is to have 50-meter platforms. I don't think capacity was a worry for that tram line.

Only 50 meters? I'd have they'd have gone for 60 m, to allow 2 cars. Surely the city isn't baking in the Citadis Breakity cars?

 

[Westey]

Let's say hypothetically there was budget to bury half the Eglinton East LRT line, while keeping the other half at grade. What section would it make most sense to bury?

I'd vote 100% elevated.
Burying 50% seems to just add a bunch of cost while still having several reliability and bottleneck problems.

 

[Westey]

Don't you find the Canada line very crowded though with it's 40-metre long Rotem trains - that's shorter than a single Finch West car.

Though perhaps that works better for somewhere remote like Scarborough. The Canada line runs right into downtown. Personally I prefer the more frequent 85-metre Alstom trains that the other lines use.

Only $62 million for Capstan - a 40-metre long elevated station (extendable to 50 metres) in 2021? Only 4 years after the new Line 1 stations opened - which have 150-metre platforms that are very deep and often multiple entrances, which were about $120 million each?

Usually the option is short frequent trains vs. long infrequent ones.
Here you seem to be wanting frequent large trains - all the cost of large infrastructure plus all the costs of frequent surface.

 

[nfitz]

Usually the option is short frequent trains vs. long infrequent ones.
Here you seem to be wanting frequent large trains - all the cost of large infrastructure plus all the costs of frequent surface.

If the platform is 60 metres that means that that TTC could run 30-metre Flexity's, with the option of running longer trains in the future, if necessary.

With 50-metre platorms, it sound's like it's made for the 48.5-metre long Alstom Crapidis.

It's the 50-metre long infrequent trains that I fear; and would prefer 30-metre long ones (and therefore 60-metre platforms).

 

[H4F33Z]

I hate to be a cynic but if this line gets fully elevated, It’s literally game over for this project. Already the EELRT had a low chance of full funding. Deliberately making the project cost more just to appease people who were whining about the current LRTs (which valid) is literally going to kill the chances of this line being built. The price tag would literally be $10-15B if it was all grade separated. This line can absolutely work at grade and we know proper transit priority is possible. If anything, the central section (Laird - Kennedy) should’ve been elevated.

Additionally, we’re going to lose the benefit of the connectivity and neighbourhood reach of this line if we have to remove these stops to save costs. I’d argue this line isn’t trying to get people across Toronto as quickly as possible. With the way its designed, It’s really to service East Scarborough with better transit (obviously). The merit for this line keeps on getting worse and worse and I too am no longer a full believer for this project. We’re going to reach a point where we ask ourselves “is it really worth it at this point.” If anything, this project needed a budget cut, not an upgrade just so we can get it built. And it not being connected to the existing Line 5 doesn’t help. I know its classic scope reduction thinking but genuinely, this line doesn’t have to be a subway. It can literally be a streetcar that’s quicker than a bus, serves the local community (and future development) and separated from traffic.

My take: Build a Median BRT, call it a day. You can upgrade it to LRT later.

 

[Northern Light]

I hate to be a cynic but if this line gets fully elevated, It’s literally game over for this project. Already the EELRT had a low chance of full funding. Deliberately making the project cost more just to appease people who were whining about the current LRTs (which valid) is literally going to kill the chances of this line being built. The price tag would literally be $10-15B if it was all grade separated. This line can absolutely work at grade and we know proper transit priority is possible. If anything, the central section (Laird - Kennedy) should’ve been elevated.

Additionally, we’re going to lose the benefit of the connectivity and neighbourhood reach of this line if we have to remove these stops to save costs. I’d argue this line isn’t trying to get people across Toronto as quickly as possible. With the way its designed, It’s really to service East Scarborough with better transit (obviously). The merit for this line keeps on getting worse and worse and I too am no longer a full believer for this project. We’re going to reach a point where we ask ourselves “is it really worth it at this point.” If anything, this project needed a budget cut, not an upgrade just so we can get it built. And it not being connected to the existing Line 5 doesn’t help. I know its classic scope reduction thinking but genuinely, this line doesn’t have to be a subway. It can literally be a streetcar that’s quicker than a bus, serves the local community (and future development) and separated from traffic.

My take: Build a Median BRT, call it a day. You can upgrade it to LRT later.

Agreed, but with one proviso, I think the best investment here is actually an infill station on the SSE at Brimley with bus terminal.

If you can shorten the bus/brt route to end at 'Brimley Station' you take 6 minutes off the trip vs going to Kennedy by bus (Morningside 116 schedule, just after 9am weekdays).

Anyone transferring to/from the subway at Kennedy would face comparable times at the new station, so the only new time would be one subway stop at ~2m for a net savings of 4 minutes.

That's meaningful and it also addresses bus congestion at Kennedy by moving 2 or more routes out to the new station.

Then, if you want to build LRT later, you future proof the station for it on the surface, for a much cheaper interface than at Kennedy, reducing your construction costs substantially (removing 2km of tunnel/track). For savings far in excess of 1B.

An infill station should be possible for ~400M

 

[Westey]

Additionally, we’re going to lose the benefit of the connectivity and neighbourhood reach of this line if we have to remove these stops to save costs. I’d argue this line isn’t trying to get people across Toronto as quickly as possible. With the way its designed, It’s really to service East Scarborough with better transit (obviously). The merit for this line keeps on getting worse and worse and I too am no longer a full believer for this project. We’re going to reach a point where we ask ourselves “is it really worth it at this point.” If anything, this project needed a budget cut, not an upgrade just so we can get it built. And it not being connected to the existing Line 5 doesn’t help. I know its classic scope reduction thinking but genuinely, this line doesn’t have to be a subway. It can literally be a streetcar that’s quicker than a bus, serves the local community (and future development) and separated from traffic.

My take: Build a Median BRT, call it a day. You can upgrade it to LRT later.

It goes back to the Finch West arguement. It was working the way it was designed - but as soon as it opened it was realized that this was not what was wanted.
They looked at the data and said that 80% (I'm inventing this) of trips are local, so who cares about overall speed. All that matters is that it's on rail since that's smoother. The public, eagerly waiting for the line to open, are strongly hoping their trip from Keele to Humber is faster. Those 80% are not happy, since no matter what, the best way to serve a person going 3 or 4 km to school or to a strip mall is to have frequent transit with many stops. LRT is far from this.
For this line, it's the same thing. Do we assume nobody really want to go to UTSC. the people are just heading to a convenience store or somewhere for lunch. If the (near) terminal station is a major transit driver - then by default people are coming from all parts of Toronto, not just East Scarborough, and speed is always important.
Probably rapid transit (grade-seaparated) with on-street self-driving bus is the model for many locations.
All that said, I could easily be persuaded to built minimal until there's money (and demand) to do it right).

 

[Vortex112]

Let's create a line with constrained capacity to cheap out and save on costs, while severely screwing with the ability to accommodate any kind of future growth.

That doesn't sound like a wise idea to me at all.

Constrained capacity? If a light metro can’t serve Scarborough where could it ever be used? The ridership projections for this line are perfect for Canada Line style infra. And maybe it could actually exist in our lifetimes instead of never.

 

[CapitalSeven]

The problem with talking about tunneling is that Ontario can no longer imagine doing it affordably. Instead of basic stations that are quick and easy to build and use, like Queen's Quay, they must be vast spaces with mezzanines that take several minutes to use and render the line useless for short hops. The people who design them simply do not care about travel time and convenience.

 

[yurt2022]

This line should be fully elevated or it shouldn't happen, the trains shouldn't touch the road anywhere.

At-grade+low floor LRT should never happen anywhere in Ontario ever again, the Hurontario LRT already looks like its going to be a disaster especially since they're using the Citadis Spirit.

An intermediate capacity automated system should be considered for this line like Montreal's REM or even Innovia Metro (SRT ICTS) using heated rails.

If not, just keep Eglinton East the same, the RapidTO lanes work pretty well right now, maybe consider raising the limit to 70 km/h and investing in active TSP and road refinishing.

 

[Aplus23]

if there was a line that should be a monorail this does sound like the one. From my little knowledge of watching YouTube transit videos over the years, you get to build cheaper thinner columns for elevated rail. I'd assume that would bring down cost and speed up the times of build. Smaller columns makes for a better street scape

 

[Voltz]

I used to regularly take transit along most of this route, no it doesn’t need to be elevated or in tunnels, median LRT with functional signal priority will work fine, making it more expensive will make the line not get built. If people think that red bus lanes will be fine if we can’t get this line grade separated then we don’t need grade separation.

The section up on Sheppard though was only politically proposed to make up for the cancelled Scarborough LRT to Malvern. I don’t think there is a real need for this line to go past UTSC.

 

[christiesplits]

Agreed, but with one proviso, I think the best investment here is actually an infill station on the SSE at Brimley with bus terminal.

If you can shorten the bus/brt route to end at 'Brimley Station' you take 6 minutes off the trip vs going to Kennedy by bus (Morningside 116 schedule, just after 9am weekdays).

Anyone transferring to/from the subway at Kennedy would face comparable times at the new station, so the only new time would be one subway stop at ~2m for a net savings of 4 minutes.

That's meaningful and it also addresses bus congestion at Kennedy by moving 2 or more routes out to the new station.

Then, if you want to build LRT later, you future proof the station for it on the surface, for a much cheaper interface than at Kennedy, reducing your construction costs substantially (removing 2km of tunnel/track). For savings far in excess of 1B.

An infill station should be possible for ~400M

You make a good case for the Brimley infill station, but ~$400M seems too low. The at-grade, now shelved King-Liberty GO Station was pegged at 500M+, no?

 

[yurt2022]

I used to regularly take transit along most of this route, no it doesn’t need to be elevated or in tunnels, median LRT with functional signal priority will work fine, making it more expensive will make the line not get built. If people think that red bus lanes will be fine if we can’t get this line grade separated then we don’t need grade separation.

The section up on Sheppard though was only politically proposed to make up for the cancelled Scarborough LRT to Malvern. I don’t think there is a real need for this line to go past UTSC.

No it wont. Why are you lying?

That will make it worse and slower than the current bus service with less stops, just like what happened with Finch West.

The whole reason why RapidTO works right now is because of bus lanes and drivers that like to go fast, especially on routes like 986, 905, etc.

If any solution is going to be slower than the current bus service it should not get built. The line should be at least double the speed of current busses.

We don't need the line to be built if it's going to make things worse.