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This is exactly what they said when I attended the meeting. They are mandated to build the 7 stations, and no more, and stressed that repeatedly.
With none of the meetings’ speeches and presentations been made public, I have to go with the little information that has been recorded for the public - and it’s exactly this lack of open, transparent and consistent communication which undermines the credibility of this project…
That doesn't mean that they can't add more in the future. But for the time being, all of the planning is being made with just those 7.
Stations can only be added at segments without significant vertical and horizontal curvatures, which makes the location of optional future stations a topic which needs to be discussed today (i.e., before the alignments are finalized).
 
This is exactly what they said when I attended the meeting. They are mandated to build the 7 stations, and no more, and stressed that repeatedly.

That doesn't mean that they can't add more in the future. But for the time being, all of the planning is being made with just those 7.

Dan
Limiting the number of stations early is another way to prevent scope creep. Once you start making changes and concessions on stations, every community within breathing distance of the corridor is going to try and lobby to get one, and adds significant uncertainty for design if the alignment keeps getting adjusted to accommodate community after community. What is most important right now is that we think of Alto as the base/backbone of something much larger that is going to evolve over time - once you have the fundamental aspects of the network in place (7 major stops over 1000km), any later phases or other HSR projects will be significantly easier to build. It is much easier to add infill stations, extensions, spurs, and lower-speed higher-frequency service to an existing corridor, rather than redesigning portions of the corridor over and over again to accommodate changes.
 
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Is there anything to communicate at this point? A high speed train needing a corridor maybe 30m wide is planned for a corridor that ranges between 10km and 25km wide. People are complaining how the railway will impact their property but unless they have a 10km wide property they can't possibly know how they will be impacted at this point. Most complaints are (a) impacts of change to property and communities (NIMBY without any real facts when you consider the likelihood of being impacted by a train corridor 30m that is up to 25km away), (b) the government never gets good value and will overspend (look at California, look at Eglinton Line, look at insert failure here), and (c) people who believe the government should stay out of transportation (unless it is lanes on a road or a downtown airport expansion maybe). Without flying people to Japan and Europe to live a day in the life these people may always think like this.

A play by play of Joe Public sticking a sticker on a map... do we need that?

Stations can only be added at segments without significant vertical and horizontal curvatures, which makes the location of optional future stations a topic which needs to be discussed today (i.e., before the alignments are finalized).
Any place a train would be going 300km/h on opening day would be an alignment straight enough to handle a station.
 
Limiting the number of stations early is another way to prevent scope creep. Once you start making changes and concessions on stations, every community within breathing distance of the corridor is going to try and lobby to get one, and adds significant uncertainty for design if the alignment keeps getting adjusted to accommodate community after community. What is most important right now is that we think of Alto as the base/backbone of something much larger that is going to evolve over time - once you have the fundamental aspects of the network in place (7 major stops over 1000km), any later phases or other HSR projects will be significantly easier to build. It is much easier to add infill stations, extensions, spurs, and lower-speed higher-frequency service to an existing corridor, rather than redesigning portions of the corridor over and over again to accommodate changes.
As valid as your concern for scope creep is, may I ask you where you and all the other ones suddenly voicing this concern were hiding when the scope was exploded by including Montreal-Quebec, going from 177 to 300+ km/h, going from electrification-ready to fully-electrified, going from sharing existing tracks and stations where feasible to a fully-segregated infrastructure? If there was one thing which defined the liberal government's handling (both, directly and indirectly through its agents CIB, ALTO and now Cadence) of what started 10 years ago as VIA's HFR proposal, it was relentless and completely unconstrained scope creep.

There are many reasons why this project might crumble and collapse under it's own weight, but it's certainly not the few hundred millions of taxpayer dollars required to ensure that this project with its price tag already racing towards the 100 billion Dollar mark (let that number sink for a moment: $100,000,000,000) might one day serve more citizens and taxpayers, by facilitating (rather than sabotaging) the possibility to add additional stations and train services (think: exo trains from Saint-Jerome to downtown Montreal) onto the infrastructure we hope to be building soon...

Is there anything to communicate at this point? A high speed train needing a corridor maybe 30m wide is planned for a corridor that ranges between 10km and 25km wide. People are complaining how the railway will impact their property but unless they have a 10km wide property they can't possibly know how they will be impacted at this point. Most complaints are (a) impacts of change to property and communities (NIMBY without any real facts when you consider the likelihood of being impacted by a train corridor 30m that is up to 25km away), (b) the government never gets good value and will overspend (look at California, look at Eglinton Line, look at insert failure here), and (c) people who believe the government should stay out of transportation (unless it is lanes on a road or a downtown airport expansion maybe). Without flying people to Japan and Europe to live a day in the life these people may always think like this.
You should never assume that other people are more naive than yourself: With ALTO stressing that they want to finalize the route within less than a year and the current solicitation of feedbacks suggesting that they are still quite a few months from revealing their preferred route, local residents with properties within the "danger zone" (i.e., anywhere within that ridiculously broad corridor drawn over these maps) are painfully aware that they won't be able to react effectively if they patiently wait until they finally find out that they are among the "unlucky winners" to be expropriated within a few months. That's the main reason they chose the only somewhat promising path of action and that is to seeking a wide front of opposition against the entire project - and I highly doubt anyone of us would react differently if we were in their shoes. It's as easy as it is cheap to shout at rural folks to stuff it up while residing in the comforts of a home situated (as in my case) less than 10 minutes walking distance from the next Subway station...
A play by play of Joe Public sticking a sticker on a map... do we need that?
We need a map with all plausible route variants, so that we can choose the variant which scores the best on a comprehensive multi-criteria analysis, while allowing the public to further tweak these variants! The best routings are rarely conceived in an office building hundreds of kilometers away, despite whatever unshakable levels of confidence the planners in these offices might have in their own abilities...
Any place a train would be going 300km/h on opening day would be an alignment straight enough to handle a station.
As someone who regularly works with track designers, I can assure you that you are as profoundly wrong as you are confident in the validity of your misconception: Trains sway laterally (horizontally) and even more so at high speeds and especially in curves. I recall that UP Express has a 10 mph speed restriction when passing through any of its high-level stations because of this issue. Now imagine high-speed trains whizzing at 300 km/h on a curve with 6-8 inches of superelevation (of which 2-3 inches might not be balanced). There is a good reason why the Japanese, the Germans and the French only build platforms on sidings rather than directly on the main tracks of high-speed rail lines and you certainly don't want to build switches into the curves of a High Speed Line.

Given that you need passing loops at reasonable intervals to allow slower or disabled trains to be overtaken by faster trains, it makes sense to plan them in a way that they can be later used as stations, by simply adding platforms and station infrastructure without requiring any modifications to any already existing track alignments. Have a look at "Eischleben Überholbahnhof" (Eischleben overtaking station) at the Erfurt-Nürnberg HSL and you will realize that this passing facility was deliberately placed so that it could one day serve as the HSR station for Arnstadt (pop. 27k) and its region:

1776019048718.png

1776020323722.png


Just a note about above maps: the intuitive station location for my tastes would have been where the HSL intersects with the railway line Arnstadt-Saalfeld just west of Marlishausen, but I assume that that straight stretch was not long enough to accommodate passing loops, which underlines the massive constraint against retrofitting stations where they have not already been foreseen during the design of the initial HSL...
 
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As valid as your concern for scope creep is, may I ask you where you and all the other ones suddenly voicing this concern were hiding when the scope was exploded by including Montreal-Quebec, going from 177 to 300+ km/h, going from electrification-ready to fully-electrified, going from sharing existing tracks and stations where feasible to a fully-segregated infrastructure? If there was one thing which defined the liberal government's handling (both, directly, as indirectly through its agents CIB, ALTO and now Cadence) of what started 10 years ago as VIA's HFR proposal, it was relentless and completely unconstrained scope creep.

There are many reasons why this project might crumble and collapse under it's own weight, but it's certainly not the few hundred millions of taxpayer dollars required to ensure that this project with its price tag already racing towards the 100 billion Dollar mark (let that number sink for a moment: $100,000,000,000) might one day serve more citizens and taxpayers, by facilitating (rather than sabotaging) the possibility to add additional stations and train services (think: exo trains from Saint-Jerome to downtown Montreal) onto the infrastructure we hope to be building soon...
I don't really think we can consider the evolution from VIA-HFR to Alto as "scope creep" in the traditional sense. My view is that these are effectively very different projects and should be treated as such, as all major changes (increases in speed, dedicated vs shared corridor, electrification, etc) happened through the pre-design period. Do not forget that the first major and formal development/design contract was awarded just last year. There can certainly be arguments made over how the project has changed significantly over time prior to this point, and the associated merits/drawbacks with the changes as well as costs, but we are now actually in the design phase (which is a significantly larger milestone than I think many people actually realize), and this is where it is going to be crucially important to not make any deviations to what was proposed at the awarding of the contract to Cadence. I have no reason to believe that any design choices being made right now are going to sabotage the possibility of adding new spurs or stations later.

Maybe this is going to sound crazy to some, but I am truly not all that concerned if the project ultimately ends up on the high end of the C$60-90B estimate that has been provided at this time, given the length of the corridor that we will be getting here. I think the dollar cost is kind of being blown out of proportion by those against the project. I am not going to tout Alto's economic benefit numbers because I believe they are probably not going to be accurate, as they could easily be significantly higher or lower, but I would like to look at some comparisons to other projects. At a C$100B overage estimate for ~1,000km of HSR, we are talking C$100M/km (USD$72M/km) which is still much lower than the current cost per km estimates of HS2 and CAHSR, as has been mentioned numerous times. Obviously, however, these are not the examples we want to be comparing ourselves to. Looking at an analysis of European projects from 2018, one of the more comparable projects that was completed in Europe is the Turin-Salerno corridor in Italy, which extends 1,007km and was completed in 2009, at a total cost of €32B (C$51B) in 2009 Euros. Accounting for € inflation since then, Turin-Salerno cost €46.6B (C$75.4B) in 2026 Euros. There are also other cost changes that have been in excess of base inflation since 2009. We would still theoretically come in ~30% higher at project cost than the closest European analogue which isn't exactly great, but I would argue that this is not at such a level that it would be considered out of control like in the UK or California.
 
This is exactly what they said when I attended the meeting. They are mandated to build the 7 stations, and no more, and stressed that repeatedly.

That doesn't mean that they can't add more in the future. But for the time being, all of the planning is being made with just those 7.

Dan
The private consortium, Cadence, will be in charge of operating the service and the plan is for them to operate the service with minimal government operating subsidies. If they conclude another station or two is required to ensure the financial viability of the project, i think the government's rigidity on the number stops will become more flexible.
However, other than maybe one in the eastern GTA, there doesn't seem to be obvious locations for additional stops in the identified corridor.
 
Is there anything to communicate at this point? A high speed train needing a corridor maybe 30m wide is planned for a corridor that ranges between 10km and 25km wide. People are complaining how the railway will impact their property but unless they have a 10km wide property they can't possibly know how they will be impacted at this point. Most complaints are (a) impacts of change to property and communities (NIMBY without any real facts when you consider the likelihood of being impacted by a train corridor 30m that is up to 25km away), (b) the government never gets good value and will overspend (look at California, look at Eglinton Line, look at insert failure here), and (c) people who believe the government should stay out of transportation (unless it is lanes on a road or a downtown airport expansion maybe). Without flying people to Japan and Europe to live a day in the life these people may always think like this.

A play by play of Joe Public sticking a sticker on a map... do we need that?


Any place a train would be going 300km/h on opening day would be an alignment straight enough to handle a station.

I think I've seen (this might be on Alto's website) that it'll be 50-60 I'm wide.
 
This website mentions 40-60m for the railway RoW and might not include the service road. Also these numbers might be more illustrative and not technical.

 
As someone who regularly works with track designers, I can assure you that you are as profoundly wrong as you are confident in the validity of your misconception: Trains sway laterally (horizontally) and even more so at high speeds and especially in curves. I recall that UP Express has a 10 mph speed restriction when passing through any of its high-level stations because of this issue. Now imagine high-speed trains whizzing at 300 km/h on a curve with 6-8 inches of superelevation (of which 2-3 inches might not be balanced). There is a good reason why the Japanese, the Germans and the French only build platforms on sidings rather than directly on the main tracks of high-speed rail lines and you certainly don't want to build switches into the curves of a High Speed Line.
That is not what I am saying (i.e. I'm not saying that a platform would sit up against a rail that has trains whizzing by at 300km/h). I am saying that where there are trains going 300km/h those trains are not on sharp curves or steep gradients which means building the side tracks that serve side platforms (like the local shinkansen stops in Japan) would not require some specialized preplanning during a stage where those stations are not being built (unless they were underground in which case you would probably want to put the caisson wall in before the tunnel boring machine goes through). So building the line without thought into all the myriad of future stations they may or may not ever build seems entirely reasonable.

This website mentions 40-60m for the railway RoW and might not include the service road. Also these numbers might be more illustrative and not technical.
The other implementations of HSR seem to only put in a parallel service road in places only where there are few crossroads passing underneath (more typically elevated segments) or above (more typically at-grade segments). I suspect you are right in that one will likely be required in this implementation if they are to minimize impacts. Looking at the property alignments the best place to put the line is likely exactly mid-concession where there are farms (as close to the property lines as possible) and to try to elevate as much as possible so neighbouring property owners can pass below (as well as animals / wildlife).
 
With none of the meetings’ speeches and presentations been made public, I have to go with the little information that has been recorded for the public - and it’s exactly this lack of open, transparent and consistent communication which undermines the credibility of this project…
The presentations that they have been giving at the public meetings have had the same presentation materials as displayed on their website since day 1.

Could they do more to flesh that information out? Yeah, I'd agree with that part. But it was also that lack of information that really made me realize that I needed to attend one of the meetings myself.

Stations can only be added at segments without significant vertical and horizontal curvatures, which makes the location of optional future stations a topic which needs to be discussed today (i.e., before the alignments are finalized).
That's not specifically true. Lots of high-speed lines have had stations added on horizontal curves, and there are ways to mitigate vertical curvature issues at stations. Yes, it does involve a bit more money and engineering, but it shouldn't be a dealbreaker.

Dan
 
The presentations that they have been giving at the public meetings have had the same presentation materials as displayed on their website since day 1.

Could they do more to flesh that information out? Yeah, I'd agree with that part. But it was also that lack of information that really made me realize that I needed to attend one of the meetings myself.


That's not specifically true. Lots of high-speed lines have had stations added on horizontal curves, and there are ways to mitigate vertical curvature issues at stations. Yes, it does involve a bit more money and engineering, but it shouldn't be a dealbreaker.

Dan

The only small difference I've seen (going by memory) is that in person display screens show an aerial view but without the pink corridor layer and they have on it the existing rail network from what looks like the Railway Association of Canada (RAC) map. In fact, it might be the same aerial map on RAC's online rail Atlas.
 
with its price tag already racing towards the 100 billion Dollar mark (let that number sink for a moment: $100,000,000,000)
I take no issue with your overall statement but I would just like to point out that estimates for complete build out place costs at 60-90 billion. Until we know more there's no need to sensationalize the costs to make a point.

Keep in mind, given that construction is anticipated to take aprox. 12 - 14 years, we are looking at an annual outlay of 4 - 5 billion on the lowest end and 6.4 to 7.5 billion on the high end to build the thing. Those are hardly govt crippling expenses. As a point of comparison (tbh I dont trust these figures) but the govt plans to cut 13 billion annually from the public sector. Even if half of those "savings" are achieved, the pathways to fund an alto is rather clear.

A secondary point, my understanding is that highways between windsor and montreal are reaching capacity. With 401 being the obvious bottleneck. If no transit is built between the corridor, we will need to expand highways. A good proof point of what those costs might look like is the 413. Current cost estimates have basically been hidden but based on whats known, many put construction costs at over 10 billion for roughly 50km of roads.

imo, the cost of inaction on ALTO or some version of it may not exceed HSR construction costs, but i suspect that long term, they come close and with maintance exp. Added, they absolutly will exceed alto costs. Thats before you factor economic benifits derived from Alto Vs highway widening. Environmental impacts of cars, etc.
 
I take no issue with your overall statement but I would just like to point out that estimates for complete build out place costs at 60-90 billion. Until we know more there's no need to sensationalize the costs to make a point.

Keep in mind, given that construction is anticipated to take aprox. 12 - 14 years, we are looking at an annual outlay of 4 - 5 billion on the lowest end and 6.4 to 7.5 billion on the high end to build the thing. Those are hardly govt crippling expenses. As a point of comparison (tbh I dont trust these figures) but the govt plans to cut 13 billion annually from the public sector. Even if half of those "savings" are achieved, the pathways to fund an alto is rather clear.

A secondary point, my understanding is that highways between windsor and montreal are reaching capacity. With 401 being the obvious bottleneck. If no transit is built between the corridor, we will need to expand highways. A good proof point of what those costs might look like is the 413. Current cost estimates have basically been hidden but based on whats known, many put construction costs at over 10 billion for roughly 50km of roads.

imo, the cost of inaction on ALTO or some version of it may not exceed HSR construction costs, but i suspect that long term, they come close and with maintance exp. Added, they absolutly will exceed alto costs. Thats before you factor economic benifits derived from Alto Vs highway widening. Environmental impacts of cars, etc.
honestly inaction on any construction of rail infrastructure over the years have probably cost us hundreds of billions in total. Had we done something earlier, costs to construct wouldve been much lower and the cost of gridlock and lost revenue wouldve been minimized too.
 
honestly inaction on any construction of rail infrastructure over the years have probably cost us hundreds of billions in total. Had we done something earlier, costs to construct wouldve been much lower and the cost of gridlock and lost revenue wouldve been minimized too.
HSR has been studied since the 1990s. Had we started then, by now the expansions would likely mean that from Windsor to Quebec City would be operational.
 
This is a week old now, but Canadaland had an episode on the HSR if anyone is interested: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podca...-speed-rail-curse/id721048994?i=1000758330863

Finally got around to listening to it and found the coverage quite thin. I can sum up their coverage as this:

- Trains good, they are efficient but also only foamers like trains
- Alto announced by the Carney government
- Shock! There are people protesting the project. Some call them NIMBY's but don't tell them that
- Shock! There will be some property acquisition

They never addressed the partisan politics element.

Yes the consultation process has had it's flaws. Yes the 10 km wide 'proposed path' is vague and leaves things open for interpretation. However, lets be honest, all the hand wringing over 10's of thousands of peoples properties being expropriated is just silly. No one would suggest running the line through a built up area, that's nuts.

Critics should focus on mitigating the perceived negatives. Grade separated crossings, access to land, environment.
 

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