casaguy
Senior Member
From blogto.com:
WHY ARE THERE NO CONDOS ON THE DANFORTH?
The Danforth represents a lot of things to a lot of people. It is the centre of the city's Greek community and home to one of the city's largest festivals, it's a major transit route for moving people in and out of downtown, and it is generally regarded as one of the city's most desirable neighbourhoods to live in. However, one thing it definitely is NOT, is a hot spot for high-rise condo development. But why not?
All the ingredients for building 'up' seem to be there. Transit? Check. Vibrant shops and restaurants? Check. Ample supply of hipster hangouts? Check. The strip was even singled out in the City's official plan as one of Toronto's prime avenues-ripe for development and intensification. But still, if you take a walk along the Danforth between Broadview and Coxwell, you'd be hard pressed to find a building taller than 4 stories.
The Star had an interesting article this week that highlights some of the unique challenges facing any potential developer with an eye on building on the Danforth. Local resistance to change combined with severely fragmented ownership of land and a general unavailability of land being key factors in why we have yet to see a major condo project east of the Bloor Viaduct.
I have to believe that eventually we will see medium and even high-rise condos along the Danforth, but it may take many years yet. In the mean time, home prices in the area continue to rise, shutting out most first time buyers who once found relief there from the inflated prices in nearby neighbourhoods like Cabbagetown, Rosedale, and Leaside.
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From TheStar.com:
http://www.thestar.com/article/246388
The Other Danforth
It's urban and handy to the subway, but for intensification this 'avenue' has to settle for a Tim's and an Esso
August 18, 2007
Sarah Barmak
Special to the Star
Across the street from the convenience store that Andy Galutira has operated for two years, a miracle is scheduled to happen – a miracle in the form of a Tim Hortons.
In most neighbourhoods, the opening of a coffee shop isn't big news. But on a long-neglected strip near Danforth and Greenwood Aves., where some buildings have been boarded up for years, the impending arrival of a Timmy's has been greeted by some as nothing less than the area's salvation.
"It would be good for business," says Galutira of the proposed development, his eyes lighting up as he talks about it.
Area residents heard last month that an Esso station and Tim Hortons will be built next year on the site of the dilapidated former Roxy theatre (the façade is to be saved). "It's going to attract different people in the area," Galutira says, adding that he had planned to sell his store, but is now considering staying since hearing the news.
But although some see the injection of brand-name respectability as a panacea for everything from the area's petty crime to an iffy business environment, others are quietly incensed that some of the boarded-up businesses are going to be a suburban-style gas station and drive-in doughnut shop – precisely the type of car-dependent development the city says it doesn't want a block from a subway station.
According to transportation consultant Ed Levy, it's "an outrage" to settle for an Esso station so close to the subway. "The potential of that strip is huge," he says. "That kind of thing is a total waste."
As one of the prime avenues in Toronto's official plan – passed by city council five years ago this fall – intense, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly redevelopment would seem to be a given all along the strip east of Pape Ave. – where Greektown and The Danforth give way to The Other Danforth.
So why aren't condo developers falling all over each other to seize what appears to be a great urban opportunity on real estate that's often – literally – a stone's throw from subway stations?
Some buildings near Greenwood have been abandoned for nearly a decade – including a decaying former KFC, its big, rusty bucket-shaped sign now skeletal.
Near Coxwell station, there's a one-storey strip mall, several parking lots and large former TTC yard, possibly the strip's best development site. On a lot just west of Woodbine station is a fenced-in gravel pit. It has been vacant since a hardware store/building centre was razed in a murder and arson on Christmas Day, 2001.
It's more than 40 years since the subway came to this neighbourhood, which seems poised between suburban strip mall and downtown retail. The area is one of the most diverse in the city, with Gujarati, Moroccan, Afghani, Caribbean, Pakistani, Ethiopian, Italian and Greek restaurants. First developed as a streetcar suburb in the 1920s, after the Bloor viaduct was opened, the strip is largely stores – many for rent – topped by mostly single-storey apartments.
But although it also features moderately successful small businesses, the area lacks the vibrant pedestrian presence that creates safer streets – the critical mass of foot traffic that distinguishes Greektown to the west.
According to development consultant Barry Lyon, the street doesn't lack good retail space. In fact, he says, it has too much.
"Why (retail) works west of Pape is there's a concentration," he says. "What you need is an increasing population." For him, that means the strip's two- and three-storey structures have to grow.
"If I had the power of God," Levy declares, "I'd see the Danforth with four to six storeys from one end to the other."
Mike Labbé is the president of Options for Homes, a private non-profit that builds low-cost ownership housing. He agrees the area needs to gain density to work and says a low-cost project could be a perfect fit.
"I would expect they'd be looking for 16-18 (storeys) to justify the investment," he says of the high-end condo developers that typically require higher profits to cover expensive luxury add-ons.
Housing with lower assembly costs, he says, would likely require only eight to 10 storeys of variable height above a strip of commercial properties. And while the city would likely balk at more than six storeys, he says planners wouldn't resist if store owners sought out developers themselves. Low-cost developments, he argues, would provide the strip with residents who have moderate incomes – just the kind that would support local retail.
"Going with a high-end condominium, which is all the development industry builds, the residents are not necessarily linked or tied into a community," Labbé says. "If your income is $250,000, you can go to any restaurant you want. If your income is $30,000 and you don't own a car, if you want a coffee, you're going to go downstairs."
According to Lyon, Labbé's ideas for injecting low-cost housing into the area could work – if more large building sites were available.
The largest and best site for development on the strip is the TTC property that lies south of Danforth and east of Coxwell; whatever is done with it is sure to have a big impact on the neighbourhood.
Tom Falus, who is responsible for a mixed-use building on the northwest corner of the site, has first rights on the land, but says he has no immediate plans for it and wouldn't push a highrise on a community that doesn't want one.
Comparable sites don't exist along a strip dominated by small, shallow retail units.
"There are a lot of mom-and-pop operations, and I can't put up anything with just one; I've got to acquire 10 or 12 of these stores to make anything work," Lyon says. "There's always someone in the middle who's going to say, `I'm not leaving.'"
Labbé envisions a solution where the city organizes owners into groups that could agree to sell blocks of stores at once. But it's an untried idea. Lyon doesn't hesitate to attribute the strip's woes to a lack of vision at the city level.
"The avenues plan makes planning sense but it makes no economic sense," he says. "It's not just the Danforth, it's a lot of other arteries in the city."
The Other Danforth's problems have been endemic for decades – beginning, critics such as Lyon say, when the Bloor-Danforth subway opened in 1966. For him, that's when the city missed its chance to set up intensification zones around TTC stations that explicitly encouraged high-density development – a practice common in other urban centres. Now, he laments, "it's too late; the horse has bolted."
Developers who want to build near Danforth stations today might face community resistance.
"People call it NIMBYism, but it's essentially just people (wanting) to be left alone," Lyon says. "People just want things flash-frozen and left as they are well into the future. It's a very human attitude."
The attitude may be having untold effects. Census data shows the area's population is both aging and shrinking. The number of people aged 35-39 in the regions that became the Toronto-Danforth electoral district plunged 18 per cent between 2001 and 2006. The number of those aged 60-64 is up by five per cent, and the population as a whole is down six per cent.
"That's a big drop," Lyon says. "They're leaving and there's no simple answer, but in other neighbourhoods where we have the infusion of condominiums, the population rises. The first-time householder is being shut out of the whole Danforth area."
Be that as it may, city planners aren't encouraging when asked about the possibility of 10-storey buildings on the strip.
"Developments on the avenues have to respond (to) and respect the residential communities behind them," says Gary Wright, director of community planning for Toronto and East York. "We're not likely to consider high-density development along the avenues, certainly not along a typical main street like that one. Toronto main streets have their own kind of typical built form and character."
Labbé and Lyon both point out that underperforming strips are not the end of the world, and can give small retailers a chance they wouldn't have in more robust areas.
And while the street may be marred by boarded-up stores, it features unique haunts such as the Only Café at Donlands. It's also home to upstarts such as the Niche Coffee and Tea Company near Linnsmore Cres., which has done brisk business since opening last year. Its owner, Gail Hawkins, is something of a pioneer on the strip. She also operates the Hawkins Institute – which helps people with Asperger syndrome – right above Niche. She says the Other Danforth may lack the "hip factor" of the revitalized Queen East strip to the south, but it is gaining momentum.
"Just before I opened Niche, a Starbucks opened on Danforth at Jones," says Hawkins, who has been trying to start a BIA with other merchants. "When that happened, I figured that the Greenwood-to-Coxwell strip of the Danforth, which shares almost identical demographics as the Jones area, was next to explode."
For Hawkins, the fact the strip is undiscovered was an attraction. She also thinks NIMBYism might not be a factor if developers were to propose "well-planned, attractively designed mid-rise buildings." "We need to find a way to also grow the retail community," she says, adding, "I sincerely believe that this stretch of the Danforth is a dormant gold mine."
Lyon says, "Let's be grateful the Danforth is reasonably productive and does still work. But (without changes) it's going to be facing problems in the coming years."
WHY ARE THERE NO CONDOS ON THE DANFORTH?
The Danforth represents a lot of things to a lot of people. It is the centre of the city's Greek community and home to one of the city's largest festivals, it's a major transit route for moving people in and out of downtown, and it is generally regarded as one of the city's most desirable neighbourhoods to live in. However, one thing it definitely is NOT, is a hot spot for high-rise condo development. But why not?
All the ingredients for building 'up' seem to be there. Transit? Check. Vibrant shops and restaurants? Check. Ample supply of hipster hangouts? Check. The strip was even singled out in the City's official plan as one of Toronto's prime avenues-ripe for development and intensification. But still, if you take a walk along the Danforth between Broadview and Coxwell, you'd be hard pressed to find a building taller than 4 stories.
The Star had an interesting article this week that highlights some of the unique challenges facing any potential developer with an eye on building on the Danforth. Local resistance to change combined with severely fragmented ownership of land and a general unavailability of land being key factors in why we have yet to see a major condo project east of the Bloor Viaduct.
I have to believe that eventually we will see medium and even high-rise condos along the Danforth, but it may take many years yet. In the mean time, home prices in the area continue to rise, shutting out most first time buyers who once found relief there from the inflated prices in nearby neighbourhoods like Cabbagetown, Rosedale, and Leaside.
-------------
From TheStar.com:
http://www.thestar.com/article/246388
The Other Danforth
It's urban and handy to the subway, but for intensification this 'avenue' has to settle for a Tim's and an Esso
August 18, 2007
Sarah Barmak
Special to the Star
Across the street from the convenience store that Andy Galutira has operated for two years, a miracle is scheduled to happen – a miracle in the form of a Tim Hortons.
In most neighbourhoods, the opening of a coffee shop isn't big news. But on a long-neglected strip near Danforth and Greenwood Aves., where some buildings have been boarded up for years, the impending arrival of a Timmy's has been greeted by some as nothing less than the area's salvation.
"It would be good for business," says Galutira of the proposed development, his eyes lighting up as he talks about it.
Area residents heard last month that an Esso station and Tim Hortons will be built next year on the site of the dilapidated former Roxy theatre (the façade is to be saved). "It's going to attract different people in the area," Galutira says, adding that he had planned to sell his store, but is now considering staying since hearing the news.
But although some see the injection of brand-name respectability as a panacea for everything from the area's petty crime to an iffy business environment, others are quietly incensed that some of the boarded-up businesses are going to be a suburban-style gas station and drive-in doughnut shop – precisely the type of car-dependent development the city says it doesn't want a block from a subway station.
According to transportation consultant Ed Levy, it's "an outrage" to settle for an Esso station so close to the subway. "The potential of that strip is huge," he says. "That kind of thing is a total waste."
As one of the prime avenues in Toronto's official plan – passed by city council five years ago this fall – intense, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly redevelopment would seem to be a given all along the strip east of Pape Ave. – where Greektown and The Danforth give way to The Other Danforth.
So why aren't condo developers falling all over each other to seize what appears to be a great urban opportunity on real estate that's often – literally – a stone's throw from subway stations?
Some buildings near Greenwood have been abandoned for nearly a decade – including a decaying former KFC, its big, rusty bucket-shaped sign now skeletal.
Near Coxwell station, there's a one-storey strip mall, several parking lots and large former TTC yard, possibly the strip's best development site. On a lot just west of Woodbine station is a fenced-in gravel pit. It has been vacant since a hardware store/building centre was razed in a murder and arson on Christmas Day, 2001.
It's more than 40 years since the subway came to this neighbourhood, which seems poised between suburban strip mall and downtown retail. The area is one of the most diverse in the city, with Gujarati, Moroccan, Afghani, Caribbean, Pakistani, Ethiopian, Italian and Greek restaurants. First developed as a streetcar suburb in the 1920s, after the Bloor viaduct was opened, the strip is largely stores – many for rent – topped by mostly single-storey apartments.
But although it also features moderately successful small businesses, the area lacks the vibrant pedestrian presence that creates safer streets – the critical mass of foot traffic that distinguishes Greektown to the west.
According to development consultant Barry Lyon, the street doesn't lack good retail space. In fact, he says, it has too much.
"Why (retail) works west of Pape is there's a concentration," he says. "What you need is an increasing population." For him, that means the strip's two- and three-storey structures have to grow.
"If I had the power of God," Levy declares, "I'd see the Danforth with four to six storeys from one end to the other."
Mike Labbé is the president of Options for Homes, a private non-profit that builds low-cost ownership housing. He agrees the area needs to gain density to work and says a low-cost project could be a perfect fit.
"I would expect they'd be looking for 16-18 (storeys) to justify the investment," he says of the high-end condo developers that typically require higher profits to cover expensive luxury add-ons.
Housing with lower assembly costs, he says, would likely require only eight to 10 storeys of variable height above a strip of commercial properties. And while the city would likely balk at more than six storeys, he says planners wouldn't resist if store owners sought out developers themselves. Low-cost developments, he argues, would provide the strip with residents who have moderate incomes – just the kind that would support local retail.
"Going with a high-end condominium, which is all the development industry builds, the residents are not necessarily linked or tied into a community," Labbé says. "If your income is $250,000, you can go to any restaurant you want. If your income is $30,000 and you don't own a car, if you want a coffee, you're going to go downstairs."
According to Lyon, Labbé's ideas for injecting low-cost housing into the area could work – if more large building sites were available.
The largest and best site for development on the strip is the TTC property that lies south of Danforth and east of Coxwell; whatever is done with it is sure to have a big impact on the neighbourhood.
Tom Falus, who is responsible for a mixed-use building on the northwest corner of the site, has first rights on the land, but says he has no immediate plans for it and wouldn't push a highrise on a community that doesn't want one.
Comparable sites don't exist along a strip dominated by small, shallow retail units.
"There are a lot of mom-and-pop operations, and I can't put up anything with just one; I've got to acquire 10 or 12 of these stores to make anything work," Lyon says. "There's always someone in the middle who's going to say, `I'm not leaving.'"
Labbé envisions a solution where the city organizes owners into groups that could agree to sell blocks of stores at once. But it's an untried idea. Lyon doesn't hesitate to attribute the strip's woes to a lack of vision at the city level.
"The avenues plan makes planning sense but it makes no economic sense," he says. "It's not just the Danforth, it's a lot of other arteries in the city."
The Other Danforth's problems have been endemic for decades – beginning, critics such as Lyon say, when the Bloor-Danforth subway opened in 1966. For him, that's when the city missed its chance to set up intensification zones around TTC stations that explicitly encouraged high-density development – a practice common in other urban centres. Now, he laments, "it's too late; the horse has bolted."
Developers who want to build near Danforth stations today might face community resistance.
"People call it NIMBYism, but it's essentially just people (wanting) to be left alone," Lyon says. "People just want things flash-frozen and left as they are well into the future. It's a very human attitude."
The attitude may be having untold effects. Census data shows the area's population is both aging and shrinking. The number of people aged 35-39 in the regions that became the Toronto-Danforth electoral district plunged 18 per cent between 2001 and 2006. The number of those aged 60-64 is up by five per cent, and the population as a whole is down six per cent.
"That's a big drop," Lyon says. "They're leaving and there's no simple answer, but in other neighbourhoods where we have the infusion of condominiums, the population rises. The first-time householder is being shut out of the whole Danforth area."
Be that as it may, city planners aren't encouraging when asked about the possibility of 10-storey buildings on the strip.
"Developments on the avenues have to respond (to) and respect the residential communities behind them," says Gary Wright, director of community planning for Toronto and East York. "We're not likely to consider high-density development along the avenues, certainly not along a typical main street like that one. Toronto main streets have their own kind of typical built form and character."
Labbé and Lyon both point out that underperforming strips are not the end of the world, and can give small retailers a chance they wouldn't have in more robust areas.
And while the street may be marred by boarded-up stores, it features unique haunts such as the Only Café at Donlands. It's also home to upstarts such as the Niche Coffee and Tea Company near Linnsmore Cres., which has done brisk business since opening last year. Its owner, Gail Hawkins, is something of a pioneer on the strip. She also operates the Hawkins Institute – which helps people with Asperger syndrome – right above Niche. She says the Other Danforth may lack the "hip factor" of the revitalized Queen East strip to the south, but it is gaining momentum.
"Just before I opened Niche, a Starbucks opened on Danforth at Jones," says Hawkins, who has been trying to start a BIA with other merchants. "When that happened, I figured that the Greenwood-to-Coxwell strip of the Danforth, which shares almost identical demographics as the Jones area, was next to explode."
For Hawkins, the fact the strip is undiscovered was an attraction. She also thinks NIMBYism might not be a factor if developers were to propose "well-planned, attractively designed mid-rise buildings." "We need to find a way to also grow the retail community," she says, adding, "I sincerely believe that this stretch of the Danforth is a dormant gold mine."
Lyon says, "Let's be grateful the Danforth is reasonably productive and does still work. But (without changes) it's going to be facing problems in the coming years."
