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A place to live downtown — with the kids


April 27, 2010

By Natalie Alcoba

Read More: http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/...7/a-place-to-live-downtown-with-the-kids.aspx

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City councillors today approved new condo towers that include 94 units big enough to house families, as the city hunts for ways to make downtown more child-friendly. Rising out of what is now a parking lot at Richmond and Simcoe streets, the complex also includes retail, restaurants, and an 8,000-square-foot gallery for the Ontario College of Art and Design. The two glass towers, 31 and 41-storeys, look like boxes stacked on top of one another, said Les Klein, lead architect from Quadrangle Architects.

“The rest of the city has got this notion of segregated land use planning and what we’re trying to do here is integrate all the forms: institutional, cultural, commercial, retail, and residential all on the same sites and create vertical neighbourhood so that they become more sustainable,†said Councillor Adam Vaughan, who has been pushing more eclectic developments in his half of Trinity Spadina ward. Mr. Vaughan is hoping to activate sidewalks with a vibrant commercial district, and by encouraging couples to raise their children downtown.

Mr. Vaughan is a loud proponent of family housing and has insisted that new developments in his ward design 10% of units as three bedrooms, or large enough that they could be easily converted into them. A proposed policy to require that same quota in all new downtown buildings with more than 100 units is being reviewed by planning staff, after developers voiced concerns they would be forced to build units they couldn’t sell. It is set to be discussed at the public works and infrastructure committee meeting in June.

“The industry as a whole believes the city shouldn’t be dictating product that we believe there isn’t a demand for,†said Leona Savoie, chair of the Toronto chapter of BILD, the Building, Industry Land Development Association. “It could pretty much be documented all across the board from our membership that typically the larger suites are a very tough sell, especially in certain parts of the city,†she said, since three bedrooms go for around $600,000 and that’s too expensive for many young families.

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'Cause Jane's Walks are comin' up....

"....few city residential districts that do become outstandingly magnetic and successful at generating diversity and vitality are subjected ultimately to the same forces of self-destruction as downtowns. In this case, so many people want to live in the locality that it becomes profitable to build, in excessive and devastating quantity, for those who can pay the most. These are usually childless people, and today they are not simply people who can pay the most in general, but people who can or will pay the most for the smallest space. Accomodations for this narrow, profitable segment of population multiply at the expense of all other tissue and all other population. Families are crowded out, variety of scene is crowded out, entreprises unable to support their share of the new construction costs are crowded out. This process is occuring, very rapidly in (name booming Toronto neighbourhood here).....().......the ultimate effects are the same. The admired and magnetic knoll is destroyed by its own new occupants, by the act of occupation."
(Death and Life of Great American Cities, page 325-326)

I think we should take Jane's warning to heart, especially in boom times, and be very careful not to crowd out the diversity that makes our neighbourhoods so vibrant in the first place.
 
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I'm sorry, but why on earth would anyone with kids want to live near Richmond and Simcoe streets? That has got to be one of the worst neighbourhoods to raise a family. This is party central with bars, clubs, lots of loud noise. All things you wouldn't want for a kid. There aren't many parks here and no place to go and play with the kid.

There are plenty of great neighbourhoods in this city for kids. Look no further then High Park, North York Centre, St. Lawrence, Annex, Lawrence Park, all far more accommodating for couples with kids.

Those 3 br condos will be occupied by wealthy retirees who are downsizing from their McMansion elsewhere in the city.
 
Just because it's a club district today doesn't mean it will be a club district tomorrow.....Isn't the Club District's success already slowly killing it? http://www.nowtoronto.com/daily/story.cfm?content=172740

Do we really want to build districts without the infrastructure to accomodate a diversity of residents? How long is a condo tower built to last for anyways?

......the lack of affordable housing in all the family friendly districts you mention (other than St Lawrence if you don't mind a 20 year wait list) is another problem that probably needs addressing.....
 
I'm sorry, but why on earth would anyone with kids want to live near Richmond and Simcoe streets?

So they can walk to work instead of commuting from the suburbs. There is more to the area than just nightclubs.

Those 3 br condos will be occupied by wealthy retirees who are downsizing from their McMansion elsewhere in the city.

Most of the ones in my building are occupied by people with kids.

Do we really want to build districts without the infrastructure to accomodate a diversity of residents?

Exactly ElCentro. The huge number of small units means that residents become transients. Once they decide to have kids, they have to move away and then commute back downtown.
 
We've been raising our kids downtown in Cabbagetown from 2003-4 and 2007 to today. It's a great place to raise kids. Not bad schools, Riverdale Farm, art classes, dance school nearby, great walking trails, lots of parents and other kids, what's not to love?
 
Cabbagetown is not exactly the same area as Richmond and Simcoe. There are plenty of areas much more ameniable to kids than this area. A few blocks south and west you have Queen's Quay, which has a school, daycare and lots of parks (west of Spadina). I'm all for mixing neighbourhoods, but I wouldn't want to live where people party it up all night long. It's noisy there are night, and even with windows closed I would presume that one would still hear the ambient noise of the area.

Yes, the number of clubs is dying down, but the night life certainly isn't. More restaurants/bars are opening up, so it will be a destination for many years to come.

Gristle, may I ask, is you building in entertainment district? Is it a brand new condo or an older building with large 3br's?
 
Just because it's a club district today doesn't mean it will be a club district tomorrow.....Isn't the Club District's success already slowly killing it? http://www.nowtoronto.com/daily/story.cfm?content=172740

That article is specific to Circa and it's target market and ambitions probably aren't suited to the Entertainment District as are the numerous mainstream clubs that make up the bulk of the Entertainment District. The club district's success as a whole isn't dying, albeit there are a number of issues related to it.

Do we really want to build districts without the infrastructure to accomodate a diversity of residents? How long is a condo tower built to last for anyways?

......the lack of affordable housing in all the family friendly districts you mention (other than St Lawrence if you don't mind a 20 year wait list) is another problem that probably needs addressing.....

I agree with you that affordable housing needs to be addressed. However, in the case of this area of town is concerned, it's just not ideal for residential. It's all offices by day and clubs by night and anyone moving here (especially with a family) should be aware of what they're getting themselves into. If anyone wants to live close to work there are many neighbourhoods nearby (that are still a short walk or streetcar ride) to do so. And if they have children they should choose one of those neighbourhoods so that their kids are close to schools and playgrounds.
 
I don't see what the problem is. Who cares if there is night-life? The kids will be long asleep before the clubs even open. I could imagine the rooftop garden being well used, and perhaps Grange Park becoming more family friendly.

You would be surprised how many young families are living in condos, and make use of courtyards and squares as suburban kids would the corner park.
 
It's funny that Vaughn is a proponent of families moving into the heart of the city, but he himself lives in the greener(literally) pastures of claremont street.

How many families do you know would really want to live in a concrete block, vs something with a backyard?

I know a few people that grew up in the grange (simcoe) so there is precedence....

But... 3 bedroom condos in the heart of the city for 600k or a house in east york with a backyard? .... I leave it up to those lost in ideology to make that decision. FYI.. those 3 bedroom condos will quickly fillup with investors renting to individuals (party pads?)... probably dragging down the desirebility of the building.
 
I prefer a 3-bedroom condo downtown to a house in East York. Maybe my social circle is unusual, but I know I'm far from alone.
 

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